Maybe you shouldn't forget that Tesla has specifically said that they are adding the CCS Combo 2 cables to the Superchargers so that the Model 3 can use them. (And that it would be done in advance of releasing the Model 3 there.)
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CCS Charging options for Model 3
- Thread starter widodh
- Start date
Maybe you shouldn't forget that Tesla has specifically said that they are adding the CCS Combo 2 cables to the Superchargers so that the Model 3 can use them. (And that it would be done in advance of releasing the Model 3 there.)
Can you provide a reference to your claims that Tesla is going to use CCS signaling on the new cables and that the network will be opened up to non-Teslas?
Wait, where did Tesla say that it would be available to other cars?
I could swear Electrek’s original article included that claim but it no longer seems to be there. I have updated my article accordingly. Thanks for pointing it out.
Jeff, your article is interesting but contains some technical errors and wrong conclusions.
1. The J1772 control pilot is a PWM modulated square wave, not a sine wave.
2. I don't believe that the Tesla Supercharger network will be open to non-Tesla cars unless an automaker negotiates it.
There are a couple reasons that random non-Tesla vehicles won't be able to use the Supercharger network.
a) The voltage issue you brought up in the story. iPace cannot charge properly because of the voltage difference and Tesla 410VDC limit.
b) There is no user interface for payment at the pedestal. This can be overcome with apps and backend networking, but there is no motivation for Tesla to do all that work for non-Tesla vehicles.
c) The cable length issue you brought up. If the charge port is in a different location on the vehicle, it may not be possible to park in such a way that the cable will reach.
One thing I did like is that you pointed out that Model 3 may be able to charge significantly faster on other CCS chargers. The fact that the Model 3 runs at max power (115-117kW) almost all the way to 50% SOC supports the theory that it could start out going even faster. Battery pack cooling improvements also support higher DCFC rates.
I suppose Tesla could add the new CCS cables for physical compatibility with the Model 3 charging inlet but continue to use the old style signaling. Sure. But then why not just use the original cables and plug them into the top portion of the CCS inlet? They would need to extra contactors to disable power from flowing on the lower CCS power pins.
I suppose there could be a transitional story where they use CCS cables but old signaling on Superchargers initially and then later transition to CCS signaling (why would they want to support both signaling mechanisms in the long term?).
It’s a good point. I dunno.
Thanks.
I could swear Fred originally claimed that in his article which is all I had since Tesla has not yet published a press release. I don’t see it now so it either was removed or I misread the original article. I’ve fixed that discussion now to be speculative.
Those cars could charge but not fully.
Good point but they could in theory add a user interface by cell phone app without needing to add a display or buttons on the dispenser. It’s all speculation at this point.
The reson that Model 3 can't charge on a normal supercharger in Europe is that Tesla isn't using the Typ2 standard on there supercharger. They have made a modification to the Typ2 standard so that the pins is longer and a larger area can have contact between the car and the cable. It would practical be possible to make a contact that could take both CCS and Tesla supercharger but the CCS standard is very hard that no modification is allowed wish stop it. So yes, Model 3 for the European market won't be able to charge on existing supercharger that haven't been added with new cable.
A UI is not required, CCS supports transmitting a vehicle identifier to the charger over PLC. So CCS can operate cardless in the same way the current superchargers do (CCS AutoCharge):
openfastchargingalliance/openfastchargingalliance
An example of a network using this ability of CCS is FastNed:
Fastned
This works for all existing CCS vehicles as far back as the 2013 i3.
AFAIK, a physical difference between standard Type 2 and tesla Type 2 is a myth. Tesla are just pushing more current than the standard allows for the DC-Mid pinout, but there is no difference in pin diameter or length.
It would be interesting to see a list of all CCS equipped EVs, including all model years, indicating which ones currently support this vehicle identifier and actually work with automatic authentication and payment. I think this is a great system, but I doubt that it will be made available to a significant percentage of the cars already on the road. So, even if Tesla were to open their network to other CCS vehicles through this method, I don't think that many would actually work.
On top of the issue of actually getting CCS AutoCharge to work with existing vehicles, I don't think Tesla wants to allow existing vehicles with relatively slow charging rates to use their stations. An e-Golf that can only charge at 40-44kW is not really a good use of a Supercharger stall.
IIRC, Tesla's modified Type 2 is not just in the usage of pins, but the DC carrying (in Tesla's usage) pins were lengthened in both socket and plug to give more contact area for greater current capacity.
Interesting. So other than just having less margin (in terms of heat damage, fire risk, arcing, etc) vs standard usage, at most they are using materials better rated for higher temps from the higher currents or more resilient to arc over / burn through (if that's really a concern), as there's not much else you could change without adding cooling (which they played with briefly doing in the cable / SC connector, but we haven't seen it since). Which makes me think they really are vanilla, except for the silly notch.
Maybe they are now, but UK superchargers had issues with the plug disintegrating over time. Haven't heard anyone mention this for a while now, so maybe they upgraded the plastic to cope better (or maybe the maintenance program replaces them before the problem manifests).
Yeah, I wasn't so much saying they must have used more capable materials, but that would be the only avenue of improving the capabilities (vs just eating into safety margin or lifetime before replacement, etc)
Zoltrix77
Member
Another theory that could be true is that the the AC pins ARE in fact being used for Supercharging, but the new supercharge cable is simply used to cover the CCS pins during supercharge operation. The supercharger system will know the VIN of the car, know that it needs to be plugged in via the new cable and will not let current flow unless it is. That way, all signaling will stay the same at supercharger sites and no genuine CCS charging session will actually take place.
I mean, if you look at the new connector image, its a little strange that the CCS pins don't have cabling right behind them.
I also honestly think that Tesla should go the CCS route in North America, to the end user, they just see one plug and there is simply no confusion what so ever. There will be a transition period, sure, but it will be worth it.
It would also be a good idea for North America to simply move to CCS type 2. They are already having to introduce it on high powered vehicles now as a new standard: J3068.
We could just have had CCS2 as the complete world standard.
Candleflame
Active Member
there are also other issues i.e. EU mandating that all new plugs on public charging stations have to be CSS
The exact wording in the EU-directive is "recharging points accessible to the public".
EUR-Lex - 32014L0094 - EN - EUR-Lex
... there is some talk about that the latest SuperChargers in Germany is walled in with a locked gate. Code to open the gate is displayed at the display in the car, so they are not "accessible to the public" and so avoid this problem? German users may confirm this if correct.
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