CHAdeMO adapter wait frustration

[qwk]

all the other camp sites I tried were full for the weekend. there was one 14/50 on a panel, in the middle of a field, and the host would not let me drive on the grass to get to it.
the trouble is, just because a 14/50 exists at a camp site doesn't mean it's not already in use.

I ran into this exact situation. All of the sites were taken, BUT since I called ahead, the owner talked to an RV'er and they agreed to use the TT-30 while I used the 14-50. It wasn't a big deal, and I realize that all RV parks will probably not do this. Calling ahead and planning where to charge is the key here. You would be surprised at how nice some of these RV park people can be toward EV drivers.

 

[100thMonkey]

What do you mean by this? The pilot signal is sent by the UMC. If you have the Telsa-provided 14-50 adapter attached, it signals the UMC to provide a 40A pilot.

yeah, sorry, I've gotten all confused about where the pilot signal comes from and is going to. I originally thought it was a chip in the plug telling the car's charger what the rated draw of the plug was. sounds like it's the UMC that sets the charging rate for the car based on a pilot signal, sorry, obviously still fuzzy on this ... I am just now digging into the finer details as I thought I had bought a car and charging system that pretty much figured it all out for me and could "charge anywhere" by automatically adjusting to the available current. I am disappointed to find that it's just not that simple and that there are a variety of common RV plugs from which the Tesla S simply won't charge and that the only way around the TT30 is using a Quick 220 that technically breaks rules, something I don't like doing when it's regarding a very expensive car and battery. Obviously I have a lot of homework to do, it's giving me a headache already :-/, this just isn't my forte.

still loving the car, just not feeling so care free at the moment...

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I ran into this exact situation. All of the sites were taken, BUT since I called ahead, the owner talked to an RV'er and they agreed to use the TT-30 while I used the 14-50. It wasn't a big deal, and I realize that all RV parks will probably not do this. Calling ahead and planning where to charge is the key here. You would be surprised at how nice some of these RV park people can be toward EV drivers.

it was another story on a holiday weekend, most parks were full, the one I found had no 14-50 available. we tried a variety of things, the car just really isn't compatible with TT30's without work arounds. I'll be chatting with Ingineer to see if he has any suggestions and possibly can throw something together for me... he's done wonders for the Leaf community.

 

[deonb]

All this Quick220 talk has me intrigued... how do you find 2 outlets that are on opposite phases? Do you just keep plugging the Quick220 in everywhere until you find a pair that works?

Or is there some ready-made device you can use that tells you the phase of a particular outlet? (Probably not to difficult to build one using an Arduino and a H11AA1).

 

[Brandonm]

With 120V, I've seen everything from 0 rMPH instant charging rates to 3 rMPH listed by the app. I do believe that in some cases, the charge rate was negative with cold weather. Ask the Canadians how much they got out of their 120V connections during the winter.

Voltage plays a big part here, the difference between 110V and 120V is almost 10%! There will be a noticeable difference between a receptacle powered by a 12 AWG 20-amp branch circuit 30 feet from the service panel and a receptacle powered by a 14 AWG 15-amp branch circuit 100+ feet from the service panel.

Oh definitely - lots of factors play into it. I'm sure that fact that I was in a garage with temp in the 60's, with the outlet I was using on the opposite wall from the main panel helped a great deal. Still, you can get more than 2mph with a normal outlet

 

[qwk]

I get about 36-42 miles every 12 hours on a 120V outlet that the voltage drops to 115-116 with a load. If the temps are at freezing and below, that drops to 24-30 miles in 12 hours. Very slow charging.

Like I mentioned before, a tt-30 will only be a slight improvement, and IMO an adapter is pretty much a waste of time, considering that almost every RV park has 50 amp service.

 

[markb1]

yeah, sorry, I've gotten all confused about where the pilot signal comes from and is going to. I originally thought it was a chip in the plug telling the car's charger what the rated draw of the plug was. sounds like it's the UMC that sets the charging rate for the car based on a pilot signal, sorry, obviously still fuzzy on this ...

This is not far off. The Tesla adapters use a proprietary connector to connect to the UMC. This connector has some extra pins that are used to tell the UMC which adapter is connected. (This may be as simple as different-sized resistor for each type of adapter, but I'm not sure.) The UMC takes this information and generates a J1772 pilot signal, which is transmitted to the car. Anything you put between the Tesla adapter and the wall outlet cannot affect the pilot signal.

 

[FlasherZ]

Almost all campgrounds now have 14-50s and TT-30s on all sites. There's more and more RV's made to operate with 125v 30A these days.

This will not work, unfortunately. This will place the L1 from the 5-15 to both L1 and L2 on the 14-50, and the N from the 5-15 to the N on the 14-50. The Tesla will see 0 volts across L1-L2. To use a TT-30 on a Tesla you will need to make a custom adapter that no one will really be able to sell because of its configuration. You need to connect L1 to L1 and N to L2 on the 5-15 and 14-50, respectively. If this customized adapter were to be used on an RV it would cause very serious problems.

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All this Quick220 talk has me intrigued... how do you find 2 outlets that are on opposite phases? Do you just keep plugging the Quick220 in everywhere until you find a pair that works?

Or is there some ready-made device you can use that tells you the phase of a particular outlet? (Probably not to difficult to build one using an Arduino and a H11AA1).

Quick nit-pick, they're not "opposite phases", they're "opposite legs" of a center-grounded 240V L-L voltage.

They use pilot lamps and/or other electronic checks to ensure there is 208V or 240V between L1/Hot on receptacle 1 and L1/Hot on receptacle 2. If you have the same leg, you'll get 0V between L1/Hot on both plugs. There is no ready-made device you can use, because it is AC (a symmetrical wave of voltage centered on a grounded conductor) and you can't tell without having two sources to compare.

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This adapter will not work since they tie both L1 and L2 pins of the 14-50 to the one hot pin of the TT-30. The UMC will see this adapter as providing no power.

Thanks for pointing this out, I didn't see your reply until I wrote mine.

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That walmart adapter just seems too easy. Could flasherZ or one of the other experts chime in whether this would work for us and deliver 120v at 30 amps? Based on my understanding, all we have to do is dial down the amperage to 24 (80% of 30amps, as always)? I also found this http://www.evseadapters.com/adapters-for-tesla-model-s.php. The tt-30 adapter on that page converts to the normal 120v outlet it looks like, so as described in this thread, this should only privde the power of a normal 120v outlet (because of the tesla umc thinking its normal 120v).

Here's how you can build the adapter... get a short length of 10/3 SOOW cord, a molded TT-30 plug, and a molded 14-50 receptacle. Ground on TT-30 goes to ground on 14-50, L1/Hot/Brass on TT-30 goes to L1/Hot/Brass/Black on 14-50, and Neutral/Silver on TT-30 goes to L2/Hot/Brass/Red on the 14-50. Mark the cable "FOR TESLA CHARGING ONLY - WILL DESTROY OTHER APPLICATIONS" very clearly. If the UMC turns red when you plug it in, reverse L1 and L2 on the 14-50. The UMC will send a 40A pilot signal, so be sure to dial it to 24A max.

Keep in mind all my usual warnings -- this violates NEC and can cause your insurance to deny your claim should you suffer a loss while using it, even if the adapter is not the cause of the loss.

 

[deonb]

Quick nit-pick, they're not "opposite phases", they're "opposite legs" of a center-grounded 240V L-L voltage. .

Fair enough

There is no ready-made device you can use, because it is AC (a symmetrical wave of voltage centered on a grounded conductor) and you can't tell without having two sources to compare.

I'm thinking a computer device (like an Arduino) that has a fairly good crystal and registers the wave form of one outlet and remembers it. Then you can take it around (without turning it off), and it should be able to tell you if another outlet has a (fuzzily) matching or opposing wave form.

(Actually a H11AA1 won't work for that - it just measures zero cross. You need something that can measure the wave form, like a hall effect sensor.)

 

[PhilBa]

I dont really understand the demand for CHAdeMO. Teslas DC charger as well as the CCS are based on the IEC 62196 protocol, better all CHAdeMO is getting another plug to comply with the
IEC 62196-3. An adapter for would be as easy as for the J1772 plug. The use of an adapter for CHAdeMO may also be illegal.

This is about pragmatics, not specs nor standards wars. Try living in the Seattle area and you might have a different point of view. There are currently no Superchargers within 1000Km. There are like 2 J-1772s that support 70A in Washington. But, there are a lot of CHAdeMO stations.

Yes, this will eventually get sorted out but, as a consumer, I feel very much unloved by Tesla right now. Having to use J-1772/30A chargers or find RV Parks with NEMA plugs simply doesn't cut it for road trips. I'm not sure where the breakpoint is for me but I think anything less than 40 MpH/65 KpH charge time is bad. That works out to about 1.5 hours of charging for each hour of driving. Frankly, I think the minimum should be 1 hr charging for 1 hr of driving and even that is going to be an issue for most Americans. I can't speak to the European sensibilities but suspect they aren't that different.

Would you please explain your "illegal" comment? Is that a technical or legal point? I understand the voltages may be significantly different.

Phil.

 

[brianman]

I dont really understand the demand for CHAdeMO.

I don't understand how you don't understand this far into the thread. And I find trouble coming up with new ways to explain what to me is obvious.

 

[jerry33]

For a road trip, I don't know about others but I can't imagine going to a campground/RV Park for 220/40A charging unless I was totally desperate. Especially as it would mean at bare minimum of a couple of hours. And 110V charger is a total non-starter as others have mentioned. To me, a road trip shouldn't require hanging out in RV Parks.

Honestly, it's no big deal. Just bring a book and a cooler with some snacks. Some RV Parks are actually in parks so there are a number of activities.

 

[PhilBa]

Honestly, it's no big deal. Just bring a book and a cooler with some snacks. Some RV Parks are actually in parks so there are a number of activities.

Lol. Guess we are different!

 

[Eberhard]

I would welcome CHAdeMO but its wether an american nor an european standard and its not compatible like J1772 or type 2 sharing the same protocol. Tesla is having their on plug, but the same protocol. thats the reason why a simple adapter works with J1772 plugs. Better CHAdeMO Carger support CCS as other way round.

 

[TonyWilliams]

This is about pragmatics, not specs nor standards wars. Try living in the Seattle area and you might have a different point of view. There are currently no Superchargers within 1000Km. There are like 2 J-1772s that support 70A in Washington. But, there are a lot of CHAdeMO stations.

I fully support a CHAdeMO adapter, even if there is a bazillion Superchargers. It's quite likely that there will ALWAYS (however long that is in a rapidly evolving industry) be more CHAdeMO's than Superchargers.

But, the good news for north/south travel is a future Supercharger at:

Burlington, WA
Centralia, WA
Woodburn, OR
Buelton, CA
San Juan Capistrano, CA

Here's a diagram I penciled out that I guarantee will void your warranty, cause birth defects in the state of California, and cause cancer. I specifically forbid you to do this anything suggested by this image. Hopefully, it will help in understanding the issues in RV park charging:

 

[FlasherZ]

I'm thinking a computer device (like an Arduino) that has a fairly good crystal and registers the wave form of one outlet and remembers it. Then you can take it around (without turning it off), and it should be able to tell you if another outlet has a (fuzzily) matching or opposing wave form.

I'm sure it would work, but you may run into issues with waveforms not being completely perfect in time. Your Arduino might keep a better clock than the generator turbines at your local power plant, or the generator you're running off. I guess it could come close, I've just never seen someone do it.

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Would you please explain your "illegal" comment? Is that a technical or legal point? I understand the voltages may be significantly different.

I believe some standards in Europe preclude the use of an adapter. This was debated on another thread that escapes my mind right now.

 

[Dave EV]

The only way to get an adapter for TT-30 to UMC is to build one yourself.

Eh? There are many small, compact TT-30 -> NEMA 5-15 adapters like this one: EVSEadapters.com: Electric vehicle adapter cables - charge your Tesla Model S faster, anywhere
Only costs $8. For sure you can pull 12A through it and some testing should quickly let you know if you can run it to 20A or not. Or you can build one yourself as you've suggested for 5x the price.

 

[PhilBa]

I would welcome CHAdeMO but its wether an american nor an european standard and its not compatible like J1772 or type 2 sharing the same protocol. Tesla is having their on plug, but the same protocol. thats the reason why a simple adapter works with J1772 plugs. Better CHAdeMO Carger support CCS as other way round.

This is where the disconnect is. I believe you are correct here but that doesn't move us Tesla owners any closer to being able to use ALL the chargers out there. I'd rather be technically "wrong" and have a fully charged battery than being technically "correct" and getting loaded onto a flatbed. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

 

[100thMonkey]

Eh? There are many small, compact TT-30 -> NEMA 5-15 adapters like this one: EVSEadapters.com: Electric vehicle adapter cables - charge your Tesla Model S faster, anywhere
Only costs $8. For sure you can pull 12A through it and some testing should quickly let you know if you can run it to 20A or not. Or you can build one yourself as you've suggested for 5x the price.

the caption that goes with the TT30 to 5-15 says " a TT-30 plug only delivers 120 volts - but at 30 amps - you can charge twice as fast as a regular outlet." hmm, I was using a very similar adapter this weekend and the car only wanted to charge at 12A, which did get me home, since I was planning on being their for four days, but that is a rare situation for me, pure luck. I did not try to ramp it up to 30 and frankly I don't know enough about all the limits to be comfortable doing that, especially how some folks are melting adapters on TMC. the adapter I was using had a light on it, which I thought was a pilot signal, but it sounds the reason it worked is because the car sensed 120V where as with the other adapter it sensed nothing. due to the explanation above.

 

[qwk]

Eh? There are many small, compact TT-30 -> NEMA 5-15 adapters like this one: EVSEadapters.com: Electric vehicle adapter cables - charge your Tesla Model S faster, anywhere
Only costs $8. For sure you can pull 12A through it and some testing should quickly let you know if you can run it to 20A or not. Or you can build one yourself as you've suggested for 5x the price.

That will work up to 12A at 120V. No difference from a nema 5-15.

In order to pull more than 12A from a tt-30, you have to make a custom Tesla adapter mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[brianman]

Added additional flavor in bold:

I'd rather be technically "wrong" and have a fully charged battery quickly than being technically "correct" and getting loaded onto a flatbed because the slow way makes me want to kill bunnies.