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CHAdeMO adapter wait frustration

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#101
stopcrazypp said:
I don't think it's just NIH. I've pointed out before from an automaker perspective, having one socket that can do both AC and DC charging is more attractive than two. If CHAdeMO was a good solution, Tesla would have picked it for the Model S rather than going on their own (SAE DC didn't exist while the Model S was being developed).

And from an adapter perspective, if Tesla builds a CHAdeMO adapter now (which would be relatively expensive both for R&D and end product) there will be a positive feedback loop that encourages places to install more CHAdeMO stations. If instead Tesla waited for dual connector stations, the less expensive SAE DC adapter would become a viable option.
Click to expand...
I guess we have different perspectives. Why is there an implicit belief that Tesla shouldn't support all the standards? I'd like to see Tesla do the right thing - increase the number of usable fast charger stations. Even if a CHAdeMO adaptor is an "expensive product", so what? This is about customer experience, not engineering or orthodoxy. So what if this causes there to be MORE CHAdeMO stations? With an adapter, that would be good for the MS customer. It wouldn't encourage people to buy CHAdeMO "native" cars (they'll buy the better car and the number of available chargers is a factor in that determination). I honestly don't see why this isn't obvious.

If the adapter would be hugely more expensive than the current adapters (I don't know anyone who would call a $600+ adapter cheap in the first place), they should just say so. Paraphrasing Chad, their continued silence is the worst possible scenario.

And for the record, could they have chosen a WORSE name than CHAdeMO??? A little marketing pixie dust would be a good thing.
 
#105
stopcrazypp said:
I'm responding specifically to the claim of road trips outside California. The only two routes CHAdeMO covers is WCGH (which is overlapped heavily by Tesla and likely going to be completely covered) ...
Click to expand...

I hate to go in circles, but the repetition of this point concerns me - I am afraid that somebody unfamiliar with the CHAdeMO buildout that reads this may misunderstand and think that a CHAdeMO adapter isn't necessary because Superchargers will soon cover what CHAdeMO does today. The Superchargers will only cover I-5 (and maybe I-90), but people in WA and OR drive to an awful lot of places that aren't on I-5. There are many places that Leaf owners are already visiting that I can't without waiting for hours at an L2 station, and that will remain true after the Superchargers are in.

One quick example is Cannon Beach; we took our Model S there a few months ago because it's a popular weekend destination spot and I had a gift certificate (I did not use all of it, so we will go back again in a few months). The hotel doesn't have any outdoor outlets. I could not then, and will not be able in the future, make the trip using only Superchargers. And aside from Superchargers (and a few more CHAdeMO stations!), there are no more plans for DC buildout in the area. So I had to, and will continue to have to, stop at a 30A L2 station and listen to my wife complain endlessly as the charge slowly trickles in to my batteries. The 30A L2 stations on the way are each 3' from a free, 24/7 CHAdeMO station.

Superchargers are way better than CHAdeMO; I can't wait for them to go in. But the point I am trying to make very clear is this: even after all of the Superchargers are in, a CHAdeMO adapter will still be of enormous benefit to many owners.
 
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#106
I agree with ChadS.

In addition, as more and more Teslas fill up the roads, it is hard to believe that the Supercharger rollout can keep pace. Having the ability to use any available charger, especially L3, is a major plus for everyone. More choice is never bad.
 
#107
ChadS said:
Superchargers are way better than CHAdeMO; I can't wait for them to go in. But the point I am trying to make very clear is this: even after all of the Superchargers are in, a CHAdeMO adapter will still be of enormous benefit to many owners.
Click to expand...
And you made the point quite well. Thank you.

Yes, that J1772 next to a CHAdeMo is indeed frustrating. On a recent trip south, the Centralia HPC was in use, so I went across the street for L2 - right next to a free CHAdeMO. Rats.
 
#108
well stated as always Chad!

ChadS said:
I hate to go in circles, but the repetition of this point concerns me - I am afraid that somebody unfamiliar with the CHAdeMO buildout that reads this may misunderstand and think that a CHAdeMO adapter isn't necessary because Superchargers will soon cover what CHAdeMO does today. The Superchargers will only cover I-5 (and maybe I-90), but people in WA and OR drive to an awful lot of places that aren't on I-5. There are many places that Leaf owners are already visiting that I can't without waiting for hours at an L2 station, and that will remain true after the Superchargers are in.

One quick example is Cannon Beach; we took our Model S there a few months ago because it's a popular weekend destination spot and I had a gift certificate (I did not use all of it, so we will go back again in a few months). The hotel doesn't have any outdoor outlets. I could not then, and will not be able in the future, make the trip using only Superchargers. And aside from Superchargers (and a few more CHAdeMO stations!), there are no more plans for DC buildout in the area. So I had to, and will continue to have to, stop at a 30A L2 station and listen to my wife complain endlessly as the charge slowly trickles in to my batteries. The 30A L2 stations on the way are each 3' from a free, 24/7 CHAdeMO station.

Superchargers are way better than CHAdeMO; I can't wait for them to go in. But the point I am trying to make very clear is this: even after all of the Superchargers are in, a CHAdeMO adapter will still be of enormous benefit to many owners.
Click to expand...
 
#110
stopcrazypp said:
Open != royalty free (a fact that has been a big deal in the smart phone wars). J1772 is royalty free (you pay $68 for a copy of the spec and you can do whatever you want with it).

CHAdeMO involves technology patented by TEPCO so there are licensing fees attached for non-founding members:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/akerwade-20100115.html
Click to expand...
It looks like those are all software patents -- which is to say, invalid and illegal patents.

Under TEPCO’s scheme, only the communication protocol and the connector are standard; the main circuits and component designs are dependent upon the EVSE (electric vehicle supply equipment) makers.
Click to expand...
Which means that there's no specific hardware, i.e. no patentable hardware.

I understand Tesla may not want to get into the fight to get invalid and illegal software patents revoked. But at a cursory examination, there don't seem to be any valid hardware patents on the CHAdeMO standard, which would mean no royalties are owed. It's just a question of how expensive the harrassment lawsuits would to deal with, though those could be very expensive.
 
#113
PhilBa said:
I guess we have different perspectives. Why is there an implicit belief that Tesla shouldn't support all the standards? I'd like to see Tesla do the right thing - increase the number of usable fast charger stations. Even if a CHAdeMO adaptor is an "expensive product", so what? This is about customer experience, not engineering or orthodoxy. So what if this causes there to be MORE CHAdeMO stations? With an adapter, that would be good for the MS customer. It wouldn't encourage people to buy CHAdeMO "native" cars (they'll buy the better car and the number of available chargers is a factor in that determination). I honestly don't see why this isn't obvious.
Click to expand...
You don't really understand what I'm saying. Right now there are two (non-Tesla) dc charging standards: CHAdeMO, SAE. CHAdeMO already has chargers on the ground. SAE DC is coming out soon (waiting for UL listing right now). US policy/guidelines generally right now are (from all the links I posted previously):
A) for places where there's lot of CHAdeMO cars you may want to go ahead and install CHAdeMO chargers.
B) otherwise it may be better to wait for dual connector chargers (that can support SAE DC also).

If Tesla has a CHAdeMO adapter right now (before dual connector chargers are out, which they should be by the end of this year), that might push some places to install CHAdeMO chargers instead of dual connector chargers.

The total number of DC charging stations won't be different, but what you end up with is a larger portion of them that require a more expensive adapter to work with. All that does is end up costing the consumer more to do exactly the same thing, but the local/state government might not know because all they will see is that the Tesla is CHAdeMO capable and assume that it's a "CHAdeMO car". If on the other hand, the SAE DC adapter (and capable chargers) come out first or at the same time, then it's more clear that dual connector stations should be built.

And to be clear, I'll reiterate to all. I'm not saying a CHAdeMO adapter shouldn't be built (again, for the nth time at the very least they will be made for Model S's Japan launch and logically it'll be available in the US too when that happens), but I'm trying to point out reasons why Tesla may chose a later timing.
 
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#114
ChadS said:
The Superchargers will only cover I-5 (and maybe I-90), but people in WA and OR drive to an awful lot of places that aren't on I-5. There are many places that Leaf owners are already visiting that I can't without waiting for hours at an L2 station, and that will remain true after the Superchargers are in.
Click to expand...
Point taken. In my research I ignored WA and OR, since I assumed if the superchargers can cover WCGH, then it can also cover most of the roads in that state (Tesla's map with planned coverage for superchargers seems to cover those two states). It seems Cannon Beach is about 125 miles from the Centralia supercharger that's being built so you can probably make a one-way trip there using superchargers if you take I-5 until Longview and switch to US30, but you probably still need some charging there to make it back.
 
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#116
aside from a few Tesla superchargers there is only one standard on the ground in the US, it's CHAdeMO. The SAE has dragged it's heels for quite a while, seemingly as a way of slowing the adoption of EV's. When the SAE frankenplug comes out, if it works well, then great, lets go for it. for now, in WA and OR there are enough CHAdeMO DCQC's to get you virtually everywhere and I see no reason for Tesla to hold back on an adapter. the smart thing to do, IMHO, would be for Tesla to simply donate an adapter for placement at strategic CHAdeMO chargers to help fill in the gaps for traveling beyond the major interstates. seriously, an adapter costs a tiny fraction of what it costs to install a high powered quick charger or supercharger. it would be pennies on the dollar for Tesla, a no brainer, IMHO.

In the long run, CHAdeMO is a wonky standard- there, I said it, it's just not that user friendly and I won't be sad to see it go. I railed against Tesla's propriatary plug until I got to use one. I have to admit that a lot of CHAdeMO chargers in our area go out of service because someone breaks the plug because it's just not intuitive enough to use without basically getting trained to use it and each brand has a bit of a different feel. the QC's that Nissan is installing across the country has a different plug and unplug protocol yet again. I seriously doubt the SAE has done a better job but I'm slightly hopeful. really though, Tesla has nailed it with a simple and elegant solution compared to all the rest and I think there is a good argument for letting Tesla set the standard... and still, for now, I really, really want a CHAdeMO adapter so I have more freedom. we are a no gas household and actually going 100% EV has upped the anti quite a bit. our other car is a Leaf, other than flying the Tesla is it for long distant travel!

stopcrazypp said:
You don't really understand what I'm saying. Right now there are two (non-Tesla) dc charging standards: CHAdeMO, SAE. CHAdeMO already has chargers on the ground. SAE DC is coming out soon (waiting for UL listing right now). US policy/guidelines generally right now are (from all the links I posted previously):
A) for places where there's lot of CHAdeMO cars you may want to go ahead and install CHAdeMO chargers.
B) otherwise it may be better to wait for dual connector chargers (that can support SAE DC also).

If Tesla has a CHAdeMO adapter right now (before dual connector chargers are out, which they should be by the end of this year), that might push some places to install CHAdeMO chargers instead of dual connector chargers.

The total number of DC charging stations won't be different, but what you end up with is a larger portion of them that require a more expensive adapter to work with. All that does is end up costing the consumer more to do exactly the same thing, but the local/state government might not know because all they will see is that the Tesla is CHAdeMO capable and assume that it's a "CHAdeMO car". If on the other hand, the SAE DC adapter (and capable chargers) come out first or at the same time, then it's more clear that dual connector stations should be built.

And to be clear, I'll reiterate to all. I'm not saying a CHAdeMO adapter shouldn't be built (again, for the nth time at the very least they will be made for Model S's Japan launch and logically it'll be available in the US too when that happens), but I'm trying to point out reasons why Tesla may chose a later timing.
Click to expand...
 
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#117
PhilBa said:
Wow. You really aren't hearing what I am saying. You points are not from a consumer perspective. Mine are. From the consumer point of view it's blinding simple, Tesla should support ALL fast charging standards. Like I said, I really don't see how this isn't completely obvious.
Click to expand...
Agreed. So when they come out for Japan, they'll be available for the US.

/discussion
 
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