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CHAdeMO Announces High Power (150KW) Version of the Protocol

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by techmaven, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016-06-01_High_power_CHAdeMO.pdf

    They expect first deployments in 2017 and has a 350 amp limit. It's only slightly slower than what a Supercharger can do with a Model 70 pack (370 amps) and has more than enough current to cover the rest of the Model S packs.

    The revision is still being worked on so the standard isn't finished. They are going to use the same plug and remain backwards compatible.
     
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  2. Xenoilphobe

    Xenoilphobe Active Member

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    Now if they could just make the CHAdeMO stations reliable and maintain them it would awesome.
     
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  3. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    #3 Jeff N, Jun 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
    The 150 kW in the press release is a little confusing. Apparently they mean 500V @ 350A which one might think would be 175 kW. Note that the slide also refers to today's 500V @ 125A as 50 kW so what it may really mean is that it can go up to 500V and up to 350A but not at the same time -- that they total power must be capped at 50 kW. I think ChargePoint's "50 kW" CHAdeMO charger is specified that way and it's probably because the existing CHAdeMO specification makes that limitation a requirement for some reason. Does the same kind of limitation apply to the future "350 kW" specification such that it will really be limited to 300 kW or so?

    Notice how the slide also says something about CHAdeMO - CCS? Apparently they are working jointly with the CCS folks in some way on future specs possibly because the charging station vendors want to build stations with the same power levels with cables and plugs for both connectors.

    I found a presentation slide online:

    image.jpeg
     
  4. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    The issue is based on how battery charging works (constant current then constant voltage), when you hit the peak current (125A or 350A in your examples), you are guaranteed to be at a lower charging voltage. By the time you hit the max charging voltage (500V), you would necessarily have to ramp down current. Thus peak current and peak voltage will never occur at the same time.

    150kW seems like a move by CHAdeMO to harmonize with the other IEC standard (CCS). They are probably seeing the writing on the wall if they don't match the power of CCS, and have taken a similar approach as Tesla in pushing the pin size as far as it go (like Tesla and CCS, I wonder if this means liquid cooling of the cable also).

    The 350kW part is very interesting to me. They are specifying 1000V @350A for 350kW, which by the way they talk about it seems to be what CCS might be doing. If so, that is quite disappointing (would be a spec that can't be reached in the real world).
    "In terms of higher power, for example 350kW (1 000V x 350A), technical studies are ongoing and the
    Association will determine its further development around 2018, should there be market demand."

    I was hoping 350kW meant a higher charging current, so that it can be reached in the real world (probably like [email protected]).
     
  5. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    All eVGo NRG stations I visited worked and were 100% reliable even when charging for an hour straight. This discussion is about the CHADeMO standard. There is obviously no reliability problem with the standard itself.
     
  6. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    Yes, I understand that but I'm not sure that is really related to what I was pointing out. With 125A today the peak realistic power kW with real battery packs is still less than 50 kW. And, I was trying to point out the inconsistency of talking about 500V @ 125A as 50 kW and 500V @ 350A as 150 kW while at the same time referring to 1000V @ 350A as being 350 kW.

    Right, as I was just saying....

    I doubt they will specify anything above 350A continuous with the existing connector although they might allow higher rates during the first few minutes of charging before temperatures get too high.
     
  7. Blu Zap

    Blu Zap Grinning member

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    On top of all this the eVGo CHADemo chargers only allow 30 minutes of charging at a time. And that's at a couple of bucks a hit. Yikes!
     
  8. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Okay, fair point.

    Actually my point was a bit different. I don't really care about the new CHAdeMO standard (since the way I see it CHAdeMO is on the way out except in Japan). What I mean is that the way the document is worded, it implies CCS 2.0/3.0 (which also promised "350kW") might be using the [email protected] specification and CHAdeMO got their number from there.

    For CCS, they have extra power pins available (ones used for AC charging) that can allow for more current carrying capacity. We know Tesla already uses the Type 2 socket to enable 370A peak. If the new CCS standard will be pushing 350A through the extra power pins on the bottom, that means it can carry up to 720A with those extra pins.

    The Type 1 socket is a bit more limited (as it doesn't have 4 power pins like Type 2). It is currently rated for 80A, but if they "pushed it" like they did in these cases, they can probably bump it to the 150A need to make up the deficit to 500A.
     
  9. renim

    renim Member

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    quick relevance snapshot

    2016
    EV Sales: World Top 10 - April 2016
    for the top 10 pluginvehicle vehicles ytd
    CCS has 1 vehicle, and 6% marketshare
    Chademo has 2.5 vehicles and 39% marketshare

    2015
    EV Sales: World Top 10 April 2015
    for the top 10 pluginvehicle vehicles ytd
    CCS has 2 vehicle, and 15% marketshare
    Chademo has 2.5 vehicles and 46% marketshare

    so globally CCS appears to be collapsing, and Chademo is gently receding. Some would say lies, damn lies and statistics, but with the data at hand, and YTD figures, can we provide better information?

    China's choice of a CAN bus based, separate port for high power DC architecture for their standard effectively the global standard as far as manufacturing scale is concerned.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    For the next 3 years or so it looks like Nissan may be the only CHAdeMO car maker selling significant numbers of cars in North America or Europe. Maybe Honda will sell a few but that's far from certain.

    Meanwhile, many of the major European, Korean, and US makers will be selling CCS BEVs.

    The market is still tiny and immature. What matters is future sales, not past sales.
     
  11. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Japan (which will be CHAdeMO) and China (which will be the GBT standard) is irrelevant. What matters is the USA and Europe (where CCS and CHAdeMO are competing).

    Given the implosion of Mitsubishi and subsequent purchase by Nissan, they are really one company now.

    PSA has switched to the CCS camp:
    PSA Drops CHAdeMO And Joins CCS Combo for Future EVs

    Hyundai has switched to CCS for their main EV, the Ioniq (from using CHAdeMO in their Kia Soul compliance car)
    Hyundai Confirms SAE Combo 100 kW Fast Charging For IONIQ Electric

    While Tesla has a CHAdeMO adapter, they recently joined the CCS group as a core member (which means they are either developing an adapter or might adopt the next version of the standard):
    Tesla Joins CCS-Based CharIn Association
     
  12. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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