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CHAdeMO installation cost...

Discussion in 'North America' started by Mayhemm, Nov 29, 2015.

  1. Mayhemm

    Mayhemm Model S P85+ "Lola"

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    As time goes on, the more and more I'm starting to think that LEVEL 2 charging is insufficient for my area (Saskatchewan, Canada). The distances between locations are too large and the charging too slow. Even with a Model S, I end up spending a large amount of time at my destination tied to my car while it charges rather than enjoying the sites or spending time with friends.

    Tesla has written us off. There are no Superchargers on even the longest-term map. We need access to fast charging but Tesla currently does not allow private Superchargers. The next best thing is CHAdeMO.

    Does anyone here have experience (direct/indirect) installing CHAdeMO stations? What are the basic requirements? What equipment is necessary? How much does it cost, on average?

    This is merely a thought exercise at the moment, but I've reached the point where I think it may be necessary to try and fund a CHAdeMO network in this region, perhaps by starting my own network. Half a dozen stations per province would go a long way to making EVs appealing to people around here.
     
  2. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    In the USA, Nissan apparently said the cost was $40,000 to get the charger, and install it.
     
  3. rapoport3a

    rapoport3a Member

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    Sounds like a good idea, although I know nothing about how to do it. The stations may be fussy and need maintenance. I've encountered a few around N. America that don't work properly---still work, only more slowly. All the ones I've seen are paired with an SAE Combo unit, which seems also to be a good idea. CHAdeMO may lose a little to that format, unless the Japanese do their bit to keep the electric car market growing in N. America.
     
  4. S'toon

    S'toon Knows where his towel is

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    #4 S'toon, Nov 29, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
    The cost of a Level III Station at Sun Country Highway is $2799.
    More at:
    http://suncountryhighway.com/en/Item/ChargerStore#!/Level-III-Turbo-Charger/p/54988121/category=10658154

    Not certain that's a solution for here though. The operating temperatures for that charger are -30 to +50, so it won't be useable mid-winter. Not unless you could site them in an underground or indoor parking lot with free access to the public.

    Come to think of it, when it's below -30 often the gas station pumps don't work either, so there may be not much of a change. :tongue:
     
  5. cinergi

    cinergi Active Member

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    That doesn't look right. The price for the L3 is "Please contact for pricing" and the $2799 one -- if you click on it -- brings you to their L2 charger.
     
  6. S'toon

    S'toon Knows where his towel is

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    #6 S'toon, Nov 29, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
    Hmmm. You're correct.

    This article has a Chademo station costing at around $16,500, but it's 3 years old.
    http://insideevs.com/current-cost-of-50-kw-chademo-dc-quick-charger-around-16500/

    The lowest cost one I see here is US $15,500, but there's quite a few without a price listed.
    http://www.pluginamerica.org/accessory-tracker?page=1&order=field_access_price_value&sort=asc&type=Charger%2C%20CHAdeMO&level=All&nrtl=All

    Another thread of note:
    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/44513-ChargePoint-DC-Charger-Prices
     
  7. InternetDude

    InternetDude Member

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    Yep living here in SK or even passing through means slow charging. I agree it feels like Tesla has written us off due to the lower number of owners here relative to other places. I've even told Vancouver Tesla folks that if they don't put in chargers here it gives the wrong impression to potential buyers. I met a person last month who test drove a Model S last year in Toronto but went away with the impression that he couldn't charge at all in SK. He drives a Mercedes now.

    The good news is that SCH has access to L3 equipment and since they are SK-based they are aware of the situation. If it wasn't for SCH I would have not bought my Model S so I am appreciative to Sun Country for what they've done so far.

    'twould be nice to see SCH step up since Tesla won't, and install L3 in at least the two biggest cities (or in strategic places along the Trans-Canada (swift current?). Mayhemm, have you tried contacting Kent personally? I'm not sure what the holdup would be on L3 (location? charger price?).
     
  8. glenhurst

    glenhurst Member

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    50kw DC fast chargers cost about $50k (US) installed; that is, the charger is about $35k and the installation typically runs about $15k. For that $35k, the charger usually will have both CHAdeMO and CCS connectors. One could lower the cost a bit by going with just one connector, but I think that might be shortsighted since Asian cars use CHAdeMO and American & European (will) use CCS and you'll want to cater to all. The installation costs can vary widely. If you can find a location that already has sufficient power, that can reduce the cost substantially--that is, installing additional power lines is expensive. If the power lines can be run through conduit, and you can avoid things like digging up pavement, that can also reduce costs.

    To charge a Tesla with these requires the CHAdeMO adapter which is $450. I've read that CCS has a more complete spec than CHAdeMO and Tesla ought to be able to build a cheaper adapter for it compared with the CHAdeMO, should they decide to make such an adapter.

    Nissan has been funding installation of DCFCs, but they favor urban areas, since that's what the Leaf is designed for, and have said they're not interested in building "corridors" where one could/would hop from one charging station to the next. IOW, they're not interested in what Tesla is doing with the SC network.

    You might also look into 25kw DCFCs. BMW announced one last year with a price around $7500. It's about 2'x3'x1' meaning it can be mounted on a wall, making the installation costs much lower. You can see one at Bill Dodge BMW | Westbrook, ME | Electric Car Charging Station | PlugShare. I suspect one could purchase and install one for $15k. I don't know if the BMW charger supports CHAdeMO; but there are other 25kw chargers. Since they consume only 25kw, it avoids the extra fee ("usage charge"? I can't remember the name) that one encounters with a 50kw DCFC when the power draw spikes up above 25kw. And that fee is usually pretty stiff. That's why it's good to locate chargers at places that are already using a substantial amount of electricity, as the percentage added by the charger will be smaller and therefore less likely to trigger extra costs. The 25kw chargers' electrical requirements are also simpler which keeps the installation cost down. So, a 25kw charger only provides half (70-75mph) the range in an hour of a 50kw charger (120-150mph), but they only cost one-third of what the 50kw chargers cost.

    There's a good webinar at Clean Cities: Webinars that talks about the costs of installing L3 (and L2) charging infrastructure that you may find useful.

    I agree: L2 chargers don't cut it anymore.
     
  9. S'toon

    S'toon Knows where his towel is

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    Did a web search.
    http://insideevs.com/bmw-launches-new-low-cost-dc-fast-chargers-6458/

    So it's not Chademo compatible.
     
  10. S'toon

    S'toon Knows where his towel is

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    So, I'm thinking that no private for profit corporation is interested in doing a DC charging network linking across Canada. Let's say it costs $60,000 to install a Level 3 charger with both Chademo and CCS plugs. If we space them out across the Trans-Canada highway, it really wouldn't take that many to link Canada. Let's say as a round figure 100 of them would cost $6 million. A daunting figure, unless there's government funding. If such a network were part of the Green plan of the various national and provincial governments, then that's a minuscule amount in the overall budgets. Maybe we should try to advocate for that, as well as EV incentives. Another email campaign.
     
  11. swaltner

    swaltner Member

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    At one point, Nissan had a $9900 DC Fast Charger (price before installation) that was a CHAdeMO system. Unfortunately, I'm not finding ordering details on it right now. I do find a couple articles referencing it, but nothing on a Nissan web site. It may no longer be available.
     
  12. rapoport3a

    rapoport3a Member

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    S'toon, I doubt that one station (even with CHAdeMO and CCS) in each location would be enough. Meanwhile, if L2 chargers aren't worth it any more, L3 25 kW may questionable also --- they're only 30% better than the fastest L2s (ca. 19 kW), which I'm fairly sure cost a lot less.
     
  13. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    It would have to be government funded since it's a waste of money. There's no way to make that money back in a private funding model, especially since it is likely that DC fast charger standards will change well before a decent period necessary for ROI. Plus, the install costs and the electricity demand charges make it very expensive on a per kWh basis and the charging station competes against cheap overnight residential charging rates.
     
  14. S'toon

    S'toon Knows where his towel is

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    #14 S'toon, Nov 30, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
    Look on the Tesla supercharger map, look at the lack of coverage across Canada. There's even less coverage with the Chademo and CCS over vast swaths. If we up here in Canada were to wean ourselves off of oil, a national charging grid for EVs would be put into place. You can drive across the US, we can't up here. There is one company that put in a bunch of L2 charging stations, but that's inadequate.

    When private corporations can't or won't provide a service for the public good, then it falls to government to provide that service.
     
  15. glenhurst

    glenhurst Member

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    I think your assessment is not fine-grained enough. There's a market demand out there. It may be small currently but it's only going to get bigger.

    As much as I wish Tesla and the bodies controlling the CHAdeMO and CCS standards could agree on a common standard, I think it more likely that adapters for each from the car manufacturers will be developed. That still makes it possible and likely that most EV users will be able to use most DCFCs. Further, one way to avoid electricity demand charges is to locate the charger at a site that already uses a lot of electricity, such that the charger doesn't really add much load percentage-wise.

    While it would be nice for one large entity, public or private, to take the lead on getting a string of DCFCs installed, it may be more practical if individual communities took it upon themselves to do so. A city would benefit from such a charger by having EV owners stop in that city for an hour or so to charge and possibly spend some money as well. So, the local businesses via, say, the Chamber of Commerce, might partially fund it; and perhaps the city as well; and perhaps the county (do you have counties in Canada?); and perhaps the province would fund a bit as well. Further, the local electric utility would be the one to most directly benefit from the existence of the charger, so they might kick in as well.

    I'm not saying it would be easy, but "waste of money" suggests a lack of imagination.
     
  16. Oba

    Oba Member

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    "More complete".... let me suggest that any DC charging spec that is recognized and approved by the IEEE, European Union and Japan is "complete". Tesla hasn't even hinted to building a CCS adaptor, and I seriously doubt any such adaptor will be cheaper than $450.

    Yes, while Nissan is installing CHAdeMO chargers, there are oodles of other companies doing the same. CHAdeMO is not the same single company owned specification that Supercharger is to Tesla.
     
  17. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    Besides installation costs, ongoing utility costs, especially Demand Charges can add up.

    Most business accounts pay a "Demand Charge" as well as an "Energy Charge." Demand Charges are for the peak kW used in the billing cycle (averaged over 15 min). The Nissan dealer in Boulder, CO has a CHAdeMO that is capable of 50 kW, but they have dialed it back to 20 kW to save over $300 per month in demand charges.

    I guess that 20 kW is still pretty good for a Leaf...but for a Tesla that's little more than an 80 Amp J1772, the Sun Country Highway standard.
     
  18. snort

    snort Member

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    Good point about demand charge. That's a really annoying downgrade. I wonder if the electric companies can be enticed to lower the demand charge rate if it's for some widely accepted public good, like EV charging. They've done this sort of rate reduction under pressure for things like windmills, and more grudgingly, for net metering. (IMHO, they got the billing model for net metering wrong and have realized with alarm that there might come a time that they lose money on it. they should bill/charge the same for power over my wire no matter what the source and bill for two way connectivity by capacity, not actual demand. This resembles a demand charge but through regulation or public pressure, should not be prohibitive).

    an HPWC on 240V/80A is 19.2 KW. The 24KW Bosch/BMW CCS device that chargepoint is OEMing is only slightly bigger. DC is only of value if you're not carrying the appropriate charger already (i.e. tesla dual). Clipper Creek sells an (AC) J1772 that can do 70/80 amps, which functionally the same as an HPWC...so far, only Tesla sells a car that can handle this much current across AC, but through CHAdeMO, CCS or Tesla connector, all of them can handle 200A DC, or so they say.

    the 24kw Bosch/BMW CCS seems to retail for $6500. This is not far from my understanding of what Tesla bills for its charger unit, which it puts into single or dual charger cars and superchargers...around $2K each, installed. Tesla could enter this game with a mini-supercharger. a 4 charger stack would have almost the capacity of a CCS or CHAdeMO (38.4KW, should charge at about 120RMPH) and could run off a 240V200A household transformer. It looks like it'd cost about $10K retail (and $8K and $6K for the 3 and 2 charger equivalents). Any electrician could install it in half a day--except for being bigger, heavier and pricier, that would be identical with an HPWC. This would open up a lot of sites that the supercharger network will not get to for many years. Although Elon might disagree, I'd be totally ok with a restaurant or other host billing me for the use of it. I'd rather spend 60-90 minutes at a restaurant on a pretty but long road than my present option, which is to use a J1772 for 6 hours or HPWC for 3...or not do the drive at all.

    Small battery EVs really muddy the waters--if they can go on a long trip, it's because they have a "range extender" (ICE). otherwise they don't even try. Tesla is the only long range EV. If Nissan, BMW and the rest aren't going to do it, they really need to be out in front on this one.

    I resent having to carry around a second charger that I really only use a handful of times a year. for several reasons (not least to extend the life of my UMC) I charge at 24A most every night and it's not a problem at all, even when I park with 20% SOC. Save the weight and money. I'd be much happier to pay my share to speed up the placing or superchargers and mini-supers around the countryside.

    -Snortybartfast
     

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