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CHAdeMO "supercharging" in a Model 3

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by KarenRei, Jul 22, 2017.

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  1. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    Something rather interesting just occurred to me, of great interest to people like me in places without superchargers: A Model 3 should basically be able to "supercharge" on a CHAdeMO charger.

    Tesla superchargers can deliver 120kW per vehicle (145kW shared), while CHAdeMO can only deliver 62.5kW. Tesla packs generally charge to 80% in 30 minutes, full in under 1 1/2 hours.

    Versus a Model S, the Model 3 has a target drag coeff of 15% less, and a smaller frontal area. The drag is probably something like 70% as much. Rolling resistance-wise, despite having more steel, it's a smaller car, smaller packs, and even the tires look lower rolling resistance; I wouldn't be surprised if it's also 70%. In short, a Model 3 should use about 70% as much power per mile.

    With an EPA highway range of "at least 215", lets look at 215 miles. Scaling Model S numbers, this would mean something like a 50kW pack. 80% is 40kW. Divided by 62.5kW, this is 38,4 minutes to reach 80% - only 28% slower than a supercharger. And after that, the CHAdeMO and Supercharger become roughly equal, as the supercharger would have to cut its charging rate for cell equalization.

    In short, CHAdeMOs should be practically superchargers for Model 3s. This is a *very* interesting realization for me!

    Concerning actual Tesla superchargers: Model S / X owners should rejoice - if you're sharing with a Model 3, the other vehicle won't need to be drawing as much power. :) If the supercharger divides the charge times equally rather than dividing the current equally, the Model S should get 98 of the 145 shared kilowatts, meaning that you're still charging at 82% of the rate you would be if charging on your own. On the other hand, if they divide current equally rather than charge times, it's no loss to the Model S, but a big win to the Model 3 - the average charge rate over the first half hour would be 90% of the theoretical maximum if it was charging on its own.

    Now, there's a couple things that could work against this. The Model 3 could be less efficient than it seems - although not tremendously so, or they wouldn't get significant range out of a small pack. The pack could be larger (and thus the range larger) - although not tremendously so, surely no more than 60kWh. There's some small losses I'm not accounting for, and the first thirty minutes isn't constant speed charging, there's still a bit of taper in that first 30 minutes. Nonetheless.... Model 3 should significantly improve the charging situation in areas with a shortage of high power chargers. :)
     
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  2. timk225

    timk225 Member

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    With Chademo adapters costing $450, you have to figure out how many miles you need to drive to save $450 worth of gas. Then the Chademo would begin to pay off. After you deduct the fees for using the charging station.
     
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  3. KarenRei

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    How does the cost of gas factor into anything? I can't even get my car home from Seyðisfirði if I don't charge en route. What is the cost of having a car hauled 800km/9 hours on a flatbed, for starters?
     
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  4. Veritas1980

    Veritas1980 Electric Viking

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    The calculation is based on no tapering from 0-80% and you can't get that high charge from a chademo adapter. I think there is a limitation in the current one, I've never reached higher than 43 kW with mine.

    Sorry to say, but unless they are putting some new tech in the 3 or a new adapter, I don't think your calculations will hold in the real world.

    Maybe if CSS is part of the European cars, there would be a chance for reaching the speeds you are describing.
     
  5. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    As I wrote in the factors running counter to the above calculations, "and the first thirty minutes isn't constant speed charging, there's still a bit of taper in that first 30 minutes." I acknowledged that it wasn't taken into account.

    If we want to take it into account, the Tesla charging rate diagram shows approximately:

    50%: 15 minutes (for a 50kWh pack: 100kW)
    80%: 30 minutes (for a 50kWh pack: 60kW)
    100% 95 minutes (for a 50kWh pack: 9kW)

    If we substitute that with 60kW, then it's 60kW all the way up to the 80% mark. Charge times become:

    50%: 25 minutes
    80%: 40 minutes
    100%: 105 minutes

    Again, not much difference.

    Is it an adapter problem or a charger problem?
     
  6. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    #6 KarenRei, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
    Hmm, from this:

    Chademo questions | Tesla

    "Note that few CHAdeMO chargers are at the maximum power, many are only 25-40 kW/h, still a bit better than 240V 80A HPWC (19.2 kW/h)."

    I should probably ask ON what their CHAdeMOs are (at present and what they plan for over the next year). Otherwise, my drive home may get significantly longer.
     
  7. Veritas1980

    Veritas1980 Electric Viking

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    It seems to be a adapter problem, Bjørn made a nice video about it

    Where did you get the 100kW charge rate for the 50 kWh battery from? My 75 max out at 96 between approx. 15 and 46-50 ish on a good day. So if a 50 can do 100, that's quite a massive improvement.
     
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  8. KarenRei

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    Well, that's frustrating, paying for something that only works partway :Þ Still better than nothing, though. No Tesla chargers in my whole country (frustratingly, given that they're putting chargers in places like the Scottish highlands, with far fewer people.... we have the third highest gas prices in the world and the second highest rate of EV adoption in Europe, as well as clean power) - all we have is some CHAdeMOs, in about a quarter of the country.

    That's simply from the Tesla charging info graphic on their page, under "Supercharger Technology":

    Supercharger | Tesla Europe

    They show the bar reaching 50% at 15 minutes. Which would be 100kW for a 50kW pack, and even more for a larger pack. It could just be a bad graphic. If the graphic is wrong then that actually is more to the favor of a faster charge on a CHAdeMO.

    The key aspect is, the more efficient the vehicle is, the more miles it gets per minute of charging at a given power source - or contrarily, the weaker the power source it can use to get the same number of miles per minute.
     
  9. Veritas1980

    Veritas1980 Electric Viking

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    Well, I guess it depends on how much you need extra to get to your destination and if you can charge there.

    I've gotten quite far with the chademo, level 2 and even granny charging. But if you are in a hurry and/or can't charge at your destination, then yes, it is not optimal not to be able to use it fully.

    I will hope for the blessing of Super Chargers to our Atlantic friends in the near future.

    And a lot of the chargers are clearly not mainly for the people living there. Tesla is selling very few cars in Denmark now, but have just built quite a big station, but mainly for Norwegians going on holiday in Europe. I would guess the same goes for the Scottish highlands.
     
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  10. KarenRei

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    Probably the case.

    I'm thinking about sending Tesla a message offering to translate all of the infotainment messages to Icelandic for free, so they could add Icelandic support. And hopefully helping get them interested in the Icelandic market at the same time :)
     
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  11. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    Do it. It is exactly that sort of small stumbling block that allows some project to be delayed.

    Though offering to do it for a fee might be likelier to get attention. Shows some professionalism.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  12. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Tesla has 1 Supercharger planned for the Scottish Highlands, in Inverness.

    Currently the most northerly Supercharger in Scotland is near Dundee (148k), which links Edinburgh (465k) and Perth (47k) plus other populations along the route with Aberdeen(197k).

    The Scottish Highlands are a popular tourist destination to which people drive.
    Inverness will also open up driving to Thurso, which has a ferry to the Orkney islands.

    Scotland (5.5M people (16.5)) is connected to England (51M people (153)). There are multiple car ferries to England from mainland Europe. Plus there's the Channel Tunnel.

    Scottish Superchargers are also English and European Superchargers.
     
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  13. KarenRei

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    #13 KarenRei, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
    Right. A city of under 50k people, that's the largest city in the whole region.

    Same as Iceland. Similar tourist numbers, but ours are growing faster. And you can hardly get anywhere in Iceland without driving. There's not a single train in the country - even from the airport to Reykjavík.

    And Iceland has a ferry to Denmark, one to the Faroes, and is opening one to Amsterdam.

    The figure that matters is actual traffic figures, not "how many people might possibly travel there but don't". By that logic, Uruguay should be next up for superchargers because people from the US could technically drive there.

    Scotland's GDP per capita is also significantly lower than Iceland's, their gasoline significantly cheaper (Iceland = 3rd highest in Europe), their EV incentives lower, their rate of EV adoption lower (Iceland = 2rd highest in Europe), and their power is only 1/4 renewable (ours is approximately 100%).

    Nobody is saying Iceland should have hundreds of superchargers, but compared to where Tesla is building superchargers now, there should at least be plans for a couple here. Just by simple proportionality relative to other places in the developed world with similar population density. Heck, they're even building one on Oahu, an island where the longest possible loop is only 100 miles. So you know, if you drove all the way around the island.... and then all the way around it again.... and you still hadn't hit your destination.... then you might want to supercharge. Using expensive electricity which comes 80% from burning oil. They're building more superchargers in Wyoming, where through traffic figures are similar to our Ring Road, despite already having several present. I could go on and on (and have elsewhere), but the point is simple: it's time to stop ignoring Iceland. Just having a couple superchargers here would make travel vastly easier. We'd hit Norway-levels of EV adoption.
     
  14. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #14 TEG, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
    Another way to look at this is that Model 3 (assuming more efficient) will need to spend less time (than Model S & X) at Superchargers during the same trip that requires multiple supercharging stops.
    In other words, why be satisfied with CHAdeMO Model 3 almost keeping pace with Supercharged Model S/X, instead say Model 3 will win the long distance race when supercharging along the way.
    ( In other words, it used less energy along the way, so doesn't need to wait as long during charging to recoup. )
     
  15. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Which is not very far from the other 5.45M in the rest of Scotland or the 51M in England. Or France, or the Netherlands, or Belgium or Germany.

    The ferry to Denmark takes 47 hours, and the one to Amsterdam will be similar. A driving vacation to Iceland is going to have 4 days just sitting on ferries.

    OK, how about this: in 2016 there were 11.52 million domestic (UK) tourism visits with overnight stays in Scotland, 2.75 million International visits and 142 million day visits. That's just tourism. That doesn't include business travel or people visiting family. Example: there are more than 700,000 people who were born in Scotland who live in England.

    Doesn't matter to Tesla's ability to sell cars.

    No. Iceland won't be big enough to be critical to the massive volume that Tesla needs. It's down the list.

    You might think that Iceland's high per-capita GDP (although income distribution is actually not that great) would recommend it as a market, but what it actually means at this point is that the lower cost of Model 3 will make a huge difference in other, larger markets. Tesla has to build out coverage in the larger networks needed for other, larger markets.

    Supporting a market is about more than shipping cars and putting in Superchargers. It's also car sales, delivery, service, repair, accessories, and a destination charger program. The isolation and small market size means that until Tesla is ready to go all-in in Iceland you'll get nothing.

    And let me repeat (because you keep trying to use it as an argument): Wyoming's Superchargers are not for Wyoming residents. It's for California, the PNW, Salt Lake City, Denver, Chicago, St Louis and other markets. Wyoming doesn't have a single store or service center. The Superchargers are there for people who want to drive through it or visit. It wouldn't matter if Wyoming didn't have anyone in it. It doesn't matter that overall traffic is low there because infrequent trips also affect purchases. People are less likely to buy a car if they can't use it for leisure trips. (It's why I don't want a short-range BEV).

    Since Iceland is isolated, and Wyoming is not, Iceland doesn't get Superchargers yet, and Wyoming does.
     
  16. KarenRei

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    Since for some reason you're making me repeat it: "The figure that matters is actual traffic figures, not "how many people might possibly travel there but don't". By that logic, Uruguay should be next up for superchargers because people from the US could technically drive there."

    The simple fact is, the Scottish Highlands are comparable to Iceland in tourism figures, and significantly less in residence figures. And you can take a train around the Scottish Highlands. You can't do that in Iceland. Or if you'd rather, road traffic figures. The A9 to Inverness is about 6k vehicles per day, while A82 is about 3k. Iceland's Ring Road is over 10k near Reykjavík, tapering down to 3k for most of its length (only a proportionally small area in the east-northeast is less).

    It's a simple fact: it's serving fewer vehicles. None of the other stuff matters. Everything about "how many ferries you can get to from a given place" and all of that is irrelevant. It's all captured in road traffic figures.

    Oh, you want to cover *all* of Scotland now, not just the Highlands and its 2 million tourists? Well congrats, now we're covering an area with five superchargers, not one! Five superchargers in 80k km², 1 per 2 million tourists, vs. Iceland's zero superchargers in 100k km², 0 per 2m tourists. Supercharger spacings of 48mi, 58mi, 55mi, and 131 miles, versus Iceland's Ring Road of 830 miles of not-a-single-bloody-one.

    Everything is captured in road traffic figures. Period. Every vehicle on a road in Iceland is a potential sale, just like every vehicle on a road in the Scottish highlands is a potential sale. Except that Icelanders are already buying EVs at the second highest rate in Europe, unlike Scotland, England, etc. Even with our crappy EV infrastructure. Given a proper supercharging network, we'd be buying them at the rate that Norway does - turning those equivalent or greater road traffic figures into EVs.

    That's not how it works. If there's a price point to hit for mass EV adoption, Iceland will hit it first. Particularly since we have the combination of a high per-capita income and higher gas prices. A base Model 3, ignoring taxes, costs a year's average salary in Scotland. It's a bit over half of a year's in Iceland, at our current exchange rate. Oh, and at least under our current tax policy, there's no taxes on it either. Versus 24% plus up to 65% for gasoline cars. Never mind that the large car rental market which buys a lot of our vehicle fleet is here to serve our tourists, which often come here for ecological reasons. But good luck renting a vehicle to a tourist that can't actually get them to the popular tourist sites.

    Funny how other EV manufacturers have managed it just fine.

    And that's not our problem. We can buy from overseas. We can have service in Denmark. We can't drive around our country in a reasonable length of time. And that is the hindrance.

    No, let *me* repeat: all of those non-Wyoming residents are captured in the road traffic figures, which are similar to Iceland's Ring Road (and less than the Ring Road's traffic near Reykjavík). What about this concept is difficult for you, to the point that I have to keep reiterating it?
     
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  17. S3XY

    S3XY Member

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    TL;DR. Oh, and off topic anyway.
     
  18. KarenRei

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    Back to the original topic: I contacted ON (who builds and runs our CHAdeMOs) and got their app. Apparently you can supposedly request a Tesla adapter from whatever store each of their the chargers are located at (although the app doesn't listen their opening hours, so there's some planning involved). Still, win. Maybe I won't need to buy an adapter after all.

    They're apparently all 50kW chargers, including those they're planning to build out later this year. From the info above, one probably shouldn't plan on getting more than ~43kW out of them. That would mean a naive 56 minutes to 80%, 121 minutes to 100%, vs. 30 minutes and 95 minutes, respectively.

    Not great, but certainly better than the wait you'd have on an S or X.
     

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