Change from alcantara to cloth on PUP???

[insaneoctane]

Dear Tesla,

I understand you've changed the interior material on the Model 3 from an ultra-suede / Alcantara to a textured textile material. I also understand many people are upset and don't consider your replacement material nearly as "premium" as before. I am personally very disappointed in this change as I was looking forward to the Alcantara that you've been promoting for over a year. To be fair, I'm willing to forgive and forget if you would just offer me the white interior. Thanks.

 

[phil0909]

Then you are in for a lot of surprises, Tesla openly admits they are constantly changing things during production.

Not for Model 3. Elon Musk made a big deal of claiming design was completed - "pencils down" - about 18 months ago. So are they now picking up the pencils again? Were they never really down at all? Is there a special exemption for headliners, and other minor items? Or is Model 3 just the same as Model S, with changes going on all the time, whenever someone has a good idea?

What exactly was Musk talking about when he said "pencils down"??

 

[DarkMatter]

Good thing Tesla has never made an unannounced change before.

Ludicrous No Longer Available?
Standard white no longer being offered?
Phone Dock no longer comes with the car?
Tesla type 2 cable supply: no longer standard
Extended Service Agreements No Longer Transferable?
"Classic" black leather seats no longer an option
Tesla no longer accepts CarMax appraisals for trade-ins!
Ludicrous Option No Longer Available on P90D
Ordering Model S 75D - no 72Amp charger available on this model?

Okay, maybe one or two. We clearly have a pattern here of Tesla not communicating changes before they happen, and sometimes not communicating them well at all after they happen. What I don't understand here is why this sword to die upon rather than any of the other big changes which have happened over the last five years?

 

[hacer]

How do you know the same thing in that picture would come out of Alcantara?
How do you know the same wouldn't happen with Alcantara? My guess is the detailers who worked on your car didn't know what they were doing, especially if they abraded the premium textile trying to remove the stain.

From personal experience and what I've read online, most synthetic fabrics respond to stains in similar ways because they're mostly made with polyester/polyurethane. If something will come out of Alcantara after wiping it down with water, it'll likely do the same in premium textile.

If it's not water based and doesn't come out with water, then it's probably an oil, which should come out with ethanol/*chrloroethylene/etc, and if it's an ink, it'll probably come out with Acetone, although regardless of the material/stain/solvent I would definitely test whatever I was using on someplace out of the way first.

VWVortex.com - How to clean beige headliner?

Dry cleaning - Wikipedia

Of course I can't know it *was* the same, I said it *looked* the same. Even with the *exact* same materials, non-immersion cleaning is more difficult with the visible weave pattern because you need to not only dissolve the staining material, but also wick it to another material with greater affinity. If you look carefully at the photo you will see that the mark looks darker in the weave "valleys", and for some of the "bumps" it actually looks like it's been successfully removed. It turns out that due to the microscopic size of the alcantara weave, it's easy to get a wipe in there to actually remove the dissolved stain. My experience with cleaning a similar *looking* textured weave upholstery was that it didn't clean easily in the "valleys" of the weave. While it is possible to "flood" the area with solvent in order to use capillary flow across macroscopic texture, that usually results in spreading the stain across a wide area and removing only some of it. The exception is immersion cleaning where you can effectively dilute it out of existence. That's not feasible on a head-liner.

So I do know that there is at least one physical difference between the two that can explain why alcantara should be easy to clean and have actual experience that it has been easy.

 

[Grendal]

Not for Model 3. Elon Musk made a big deal of claiming design was completed - "pencils down" - about 18 months ago. So are they now picking up the pencils again? Were they never really down at all? Is there a special exemption for headliners, and other minor items? Or is Model 3 just the same as Model S, with changes going on all the time, whenever someone has a good idea?

What exactly was Musk talking about when he said "pencils down"??

There is a huge difference between design decisions and vendor issues. If the vendor making and shipping the alcantara headliner couldn't meet Tesla demand or started falling behind then Tesla has to find alternatives. The other option is to slow production. Maybe the price was raised. Does Tesla want to raise the price of the vehicle? "Pencils down" does not mean things are locked in forever. "Pencils down" means that the design is not going to change dramatically. A change in fabric is not a major design change.

That's my interpretation.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Tesla needs to know that there were 50 pages of discussion about this issue here in TMC. Maybe when they meet about something else.....they will think twice about the possible perspectives of their customers.

If this thread does nothing more than making Tesla think twice in the future......then its worth it.

Who knows? Elon has changed his mind in twitter based on reactions by a smaller number of folks than this.


Elon Musk Takes Customer Complaint on Twitter From Idea to Execution in 6 Days


This is a Garlan'ism to his kids.

One way to get nothing done is to do nothing.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Now that you mention it ......I was looking through Ebay

Cheapest synthetic suede I could find is $20/yard plus $7 shipping.

Faux Shearling / Synthetic Suede Reversible! Fabric by the Yard - Camel/Brown | eBay

Cheapest premium cloth headliner that looks line what Tesla is using cost $4/ft or $12k/yard plus free shipping.

PREMIUM STITCHED CLOTH BLACK HEADLINER WINDLACE FORD FALCON CHRYSLER BY THE FOOT | eBay

The cheapest headliner fabric I could find is $2/fit or $6/yard plus $1 shipping.

POLYMAT S25 1ft X 48" CARPET:AUTO DASH COVER PANELS TRUNKLINER HEADLINER FABRIC | eBay


The first 1500 $35k Model 3s to prove a point?

This knit headliner on eh4y at $11/yard looks close to the premium headliner in the 3 to me, although it's arguably hard to tell because I've never seen either in person.

1/8 Foam Backed Lt. Gray Med Automotive Flat Knit Headliner Fabric 60" W BTY | eBay
https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/download-20.jpeg?quality=82&strip=all&w=496&h=661

Micro suede headliner material is also $11/yard on amazingon.

https://www.amazon.com/Upholstery-M...5974141&sr=8-1&keywords=micro+suede+headliner

With that said, I doubt we can get a good idea of cost from random vendors selling by the yard.

 

[RobStark]

This knit headliner on eh4y at $11/yard looks close to the premium headliner in the 3 to me, although it's arguably hard to tell because I've never seen either in person.

I am going to get my local upholstery shop to switch out the light grey premium cloth for this faux suede

 

[ohmman]

Tesla needs to know that there were 50 pages of discussion about this issue here in TMC. Maybe when they meet about something else.....they will think twice about the possible perspectives of their customers.

Maybe. But remember that this thread represents about 15 or 20 customers who are bothered by the change. It does represent customer dissatisfaction, no doubt. And I’m sure they read this stuff, as has been pointed out before. But whether that number of upset customers is enough to move the needle during complex discussions, I personally do not know.

 

[SMAlset]

Can't wait to see people start asking for a year's free maintenance or something over this.

 

[phil0909]

"Pencils down" means that the design is not going to change dramatically.

Well, it was never going to change DRAMATICALLY, after it had already been shown live months earlier, and described long before that. What you're saying is that 'pencils down' pretty much meant nothing at all. And I suspect you're right.

 

[DarkMatter]

I was curious, so I just checked. The Audi A7 starts at around $70k. It doesn't seem to even offer a Alcantara headliner, just cloth. You need to step up to an S-car or an A8 to get Alcantara, and even then it's sometimes a quite expensive option. In that context having cloth in the 3 makes sense, but it does seem weird to drop it from the S and X.

 

[metier]

Good thing Tesla has never made an unannounced change before.

Ludicrous No Longer Available?
Standard white no longer being offered?
Phone Dock no longer comes with the car?
Tesla type 2 cable supply: no longer standard
Extended Service Agreements No Longer Transferable?
"Classic" black leather seats no longer an option
Tesla no longer accepts CarMax appraisals for trade-ins!
Ludicrous Option No Longer Available on P90D
Ordering Model S 75D - no 72Amp charger available on this model?

Okay, maybe one or two. We clearly have a pattern here of Tesla not communicating changes before they happen, and sometimes not communicating them well at all after they happen. What I don't understand here is why this sword to die upon rather than any of the other big changes which have happened over the last five years?

Did any of these happen after 1500 or so cars being built

 

[shelbri]

I had a 2014 Model S with non Alcantara on the dashboard or the headliner. When I bought my 2017 Model S, it came with Alcantara on the dashboard but the headliner is textile. I am very happy that the headliner is not Alcantara. Looks much cleaner and doesn't show fingerprint lines when someone touches is and runs their fingers across it like on the dash. Don't see what all the fuss is about. Alcantara looks terrible IMHO.

 

[insaneoctane]

I had a 2014 Model S with non Alcantara on the dashboard or the headliner. When I bought my 2017 Model S, it came with Alcantara on the dashboard but the headliner is textile. I am very happy that the headliner is not Alcantara. Looks much cleaner and doesn't show fingerprint lines when someone touches is and runs their fingers across it like on the dash. Don't see what all the fuss is about. Alcantara looks terrible IMHO.

Probably because not everyone thinks that Alcantara looks terrible....

 

[DarkMatter]

Did any of these happen after 1500 or so cars being built

Yes. Quite a number of them did.

 

[MotoEvCA]

Many are getting a great education on how important it is to have great leadership in an important area impacting millions globally. Subject Matter competency, great decisioning skills, and strong communications judgment are essential for effective leadership.

Using Twitter for communicating policy and changes impacting many has proven to be troublesome where proven communication best practices already exist
Elon Musk Takes Customer Complaint on Twitter From Idea to Execution in 6 Days

It's less about the headliner but all about the treatment of paying customers in a Tesla culture operating contra to historical industry norms
Change Management In the Automotive Industry
Communications in Change Management

I'm prepared to move on and process my Model 3 configuration next week but will remember the words of our former president 'Доверяй, но проверяй'

 

[whatthe2]

I didn't know what Alcantara was prior to this thread, and I never even knew what material my headliner had prior to this thread. I have a 2017 Ford Explorer Sport and it has the textile material similar to what Tesla is providing now and it looks just fine to me. But I definitely believe Tesla led people to believe it would be Alcantara in the M3 so I see how people are upset and realize that it's a bad PR move on their part on how they communicated the change. I think that is the issue - how it was communicated. They should be upfront about the change and not try and make it out to be that is was a "planned move from the start". That is the issue IMO.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Maybe. But remember that this thread represents about 15 or 20 customers who are bothered by the change. It does represent customer dissatisfaction, no doubt. And I’m sure they read this stuff, as has been pointed out before. But whether that number of upset customers is enough to move the needle during complex discussions, I personally do not know.

You may be right...but it has to be more than 15 to 20. The poll shows more than that on another thread...right? I'm not even including all of the timid folks who just browse through and just don't want to participate.

There are over 70K views. Oh well. maybe that means nothing. Hopefully 1 of the views was Elon or better yet Franz.

Anywhoo.....maybe you are right.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Of course I can't know it *was* the same, I said it *looked* the same. Even with the *exact* same materials, non-immersion cleaning is more difficult with the visible weave pattern because you need to not only dissolve the staining material, but also wick it to another material with greater affinity. If you look carefully at the photo you will see that the mark looks darker in the weave "valleys", and for some of the "bumps" it actually looks like it's been successfully removed. It turns out that due to the microscopic size of the alcantara weave, it's easy to get a wipe in there to actually remove the dissolved stain. My experience with cleaning a similar *looking* textured weave upholstery was that it didn't clean easily in the "valleys" of the weave. While it is possible to "flood" the area with solvent in order to use capillary flow across macroscopic texture, that usually results in spreading the stain across a wide area and removing only some of it. The exception is immersion cleaning where you can effectively dilute it out of existence. That's not feasible on a head-liner.

So I do know that there is at least one physical difference between the two that can explain why alcantara should be easy to clean and have actual experience that it has been easy.

I think the construction of the fabric only matters when someone isn't using an appropriate solvent to remove a stain. Someone can mechanically remove a stain with enough effort, which is what I'm guessing the Tesla detailers tried to do in the other post I quoted and I imagine the owner tried to do in the image in my last post. But if they aren't using the right solvent, they won't get it out easily if at all.

Sure, a weave makes it a little harder to remove a stain, but I don't think it's the differnce being described, which is the ability to wipe away a stain versus the inability to remove a stain even after scrubbing to the point where the material is damaged/frayed.

FWIW, apparently there are plenty of other solvents to use when removing stains.

Stain removal - Wikipedia