TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Change to charging cables delivered with UK cars

Discussion in 'The UK and Ireland' started by arg, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. arg

    arg Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    #41 arg, Apr 18, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
    Yes, though 7kW should be enough for overnight charging; for me the main justification for dual chargers was charging away from home (Ecotricity charge points - as you say, largely obsoleted once CHAdeMO is available), though there are those odd occasions where I've been driving during the day then come home and want to head off with the family on (eg.) a friday night.

    I've currently given up on more than 7kW at home, but I'm thinking about getting a 3-phase EVSE installed somewhere nearby (I have a mate with 3-phase in his industrial unit, or my parents have a flat where the landlord's supply is 3-phase and we control the management company).

    Is there something unusual about your installation? I didn't think that 200A single phase was generally available (other than by using only one phase out of a 3-phase feed), but I'm happy to learn if I'm wrong!

    My understanding (particularly from reading the threads on here from Norway) is that the car won't make use of a 63A single phase supply wired as per IEC 62196 (ie. using the highest-rated connectors and feeding only the L1 pin with 63A of single phase) - it will only charge at 32A from such a supply, since internally it is three (or 6) separate chargers, wired one (or 2) per phase.

    People in Norway have been using a standard 3-phase 32A EVSE, simply wiring the single phase supply to all three phase inputs of the EVSE in parallel (and thus feeding the same single phase to all 3 of the pins on the connector at the car). Since this is a non-standard configuration, there's the question of what to put on the pilot pin; logically, you should be setting the pilot for 32A (which means 32A from each of the 3 phases in a 3-phase setup). I was told that the Model S interprets the pilot differently when it detects that the three phase inputs are the same and so you need to set the pilot for 80A - but I am not sure I believe this, it may have been a misunderstanding.
     
  2. arg

    arg Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Yes.

    I don't think the BS1363 socket itself is a problem - not from a regulatory point of view at least.

    The IET Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation specifically includes the installation of BS1363 sockets for charging - and requires that you label them with a special yellow label that says "Electric Vehicle Connecting Point".

    Most of the material in the Code of Practice is concerned with earthing - and many existing sockets (whether BS1363 or commando etc.) won't comply due to the use of PME (otherwise known as TN-C-S) earthing. The concern here is what happens if the neutral conductor in the supply cable becomes broken - this can cause all 'earthed' parts of the installation to become live, including in this case the car. But I can't see how this problem is particular to the UK - I believe TN-C-S is common elsewhere in Europe.

    If it was just the BS1363 sockets Tesla was afraid of, they could simply supply the UMC with just the red/blue adaptors and not make a BS1363 adaptor.

    So it's not really clear what the issue is.
     
  3. mgboyes

    mgboyes Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2014
    Messages:
    812
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well as we know the socket on an EU/UK Model S is not a Type 2 socket - it is compatible with a Type 2 plug, but it has extra features that in particular enable it to have 350A of DC current poured through it. In that situation I have to assume that the 4 "power" pins are used as two positive and two negative. But that only happens at superchargers using cables and plugs built by Tesla (that again are not exactly Type 2 plugs).

    But running all 3 phase pins with AC of the same phase at 32A must surely be really dangerous, because it means you're running 96A through the single neutral wire (since the 3 hot wires are all in phase, the neutral is no longer balanced out to zero). What spec of Type 2 plug, cable, RCBOs and switches are these Norwegians using that can handle 96A on the neutral wire?
     
  4. hiroshiy

    hiroshiy Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    Messages:
    2,317
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    @arg thanks for explanation!
     
  5. arg

    arg Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Actually, that makes sense of the pilot needing to reflect the total current - so the pilot is protecting the neutral in this case, rather than the phase. Also explains Tesla's specification saying 80A for single phase rather than 96A (although the IEC 62196-2 connectors are rated at 70A in single-phase use, using only 2 pins - maybe getting the full 80A would need Tesla's deeper connectors).

    The reports were of using standard off-the-shelf 3-phase EVSE, wiring single phase to all the inputs and leaving the pilot unchanged. This may have been mainly in the context of getting single charger cars to use 32A single phase, in which case nothing unusual is needed.

    Presumably there are EVSE available intended for the Renault cars that take 63A three-phase, though I don't know where you find them.
     
  6. OleJA

    OleJA Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2013
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Norway
    There has been several problems related to the UMC i Norway. There are more or less unconfirmed rumours that it is currently being redesigned, and all existing UMCs will later be replaced. My guess is that they will avoid delivering UMCs in new markeds until the redesigned UMC is available.

    The known problems are:
    - The contactor doesnt switch the neutral phase. As single phase charging connects between N and L1, N is effectively powered all the time. Furthermore, this sometimes caused the car to belive the charge cable was faulty, and reported charge problems.
    - The push button for opening the charge port is of really poor quality. Lots of TMS users has had their UMC replaced due to this. I am on my third UMC, which has also failed. Tesla is not replacing due to this anymore, likely as they are awaiting an improved UMC.
     
  7. mgboyes

    mgboyes Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2014
    Messages:
    812
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This is all quite fascinating.

    Firstly, if a single charger Model S meets a 7kW single phase 32A Type 2 charging station in the wild, what happens? The charging station will be wired properly with just L1 connected, so how much current will the car draw? Based on the alleged Norwegian experience it should be only 16A (since this is a single charger car, with a single 16A charge unit attached to each of the three phase pins.

    Secondly, I wonder if this is what's behind the rumoured "special version" of the Chargemaster 7kW EVSE for the Model S. People who've already had Chargemaster points installed are reporting that they're being contacted and offered replacement versions that are "designed for Model S". Has anyone charged a single charger Model S on a 7kW chargemaster EVSE? What current did the car draw?
     
  8. arg

    arg Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    I believe the answer being reported was 16A - hence the effort to improve things with different EVSE.

    In fact, it may be worse than that at the moment: shortly after release, the european cars were software-limited to 26A, pending a hardware fix for whatever the undersized component might be. I am not sure whether this in turn means the single-charger cars are limited to 13A on simple single phase.

    A fix has been promised for a while, but I haven't heard anyone report that they've had the upgrade. I've been told (by a Tesla person) that the UK cars will have this fixed by the time we get them.


    I have a 7kW Chargemaster (installed mid march), and Tesla know about it, but I haven't been offered a replacement - but then Tesla also know that I ordered the twin chargers. So your theory is plausible.

    There's also been speculation on the forums that the fix for the 26A problem might also fix the 16A-on-single-phase issue with single charger cars, but I've not seen any reference to Tesla confirming this, so it's probably wishful thinking.
     
  9. Alan

    Alan Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2010
    Messages:
    271
    Location:
    UK
    Seems there has been progress with Chargemaster / Tesla. I have a (Model S spec) 30A charger with tethered cable (4.7meter) due to be installed at the start of June!

    Really happy with that as I did not want the hassle of having to take a cable out of the car, plug it in at both ends etc. Now it should be as easy as charging my Roadster, just drive up & plug in.
     
  10. Dborn

    Dborn Confirmed

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,598
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Question from Australia. What is the commonly available public charger equipped with? That is, not your domestic charger, but in car parks or shopping centres. J1772, Type 2, or what?
    thanks.
     
  11. mgboyes

    mgboyes Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2014
    Messages:
    812
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    In terms of absolute numbers, the most common public charging connector in the UK is probably a standard 3 pin 13A mains plug. There are tons of low-powered charging points, especially in London, that have been installed over the last few years to try to promote electric city cars that only have very small batteries and low powered charging needs.

    Type 2 is very common as well, and the default for any new installation, but you'll find examples of pretty much every different connector out there somewhere. There are some J1772 and even 16A and 32A commando sockets. Oh and there are quite a few CHAdeMO points in the UK too!

    The only thing I've never come across is a Type 3 plug, but if you cross the Channel into France then you'll meet those too...
     
  12. jontracey

    jontracey Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    isnt type 3 a french only thing ?
     
  13. mgboyes

    mgboyes Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2014
    Messages:
    812
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well it's a European thing which mercifully everyone seems to have ignored except the French and possibly the Italians. Still a bloody inconvenience that I will have to shell out about €400 for a cable to charge on my occasional day trips across the Channel...
     
  14. PV4EV

    PV4EV Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2011
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Area 51 / UK
    #54 PV4EV, May 18, 2014
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
    Heres some approx 'statistics'(!) based on 3 yrs and 30k miles of using an EV pretty much every day:- In 1000+ trips of all lengths, I've only ever 'needed' to use a 7 or 15kw charger on about half a dozen times, ie less than 1% of the time. Its something of a novelty to try out them out, but generally with up to 200+ miles of daily range 99% of my journeys are covered by 32amp / 7kw overnight charging at home. I simply dont bother with all these daft 13amp sockets TFL have been putting London - pointless.

    I tend to carry around a variety of cables and adpaters allowing me to use 13amp / 32amp blue commando / J1772 / Type-2 adapter, and the Tesla 15kw chargers have their own cables.




    Below is a lengthy deliberately OTT post I prepared for another forum about the EV charging infrastructure and charging away from home if you need it. Its to give some comfort to all the range-anxiety armchair experts out there in ICE land, but as stated above 99% of my charging needs are catered for by topping up overnight, and I imagine this is the same for 'most' EV drivers.


    ----------------------------------------------

    I wonder how many ICE car drivers realise that there may now be more charge points than petrol stations in the UK ?? (... and that's not including 1 billion+ 13 amp sockets at homes and offices !)


    - Ecotricity now have almost every motorway service station covered offering multiple FREE fast charging points providing 50kw DC, 43kw, 22kw, 7kw. They'll also supply electricity to your home with a discount if you own a pure EV.

    - All IKEA's have Ecotricity chargers mainly 7kw / 43kw / 50kw chademo.

    - Then there's something like 5,000+ 7kw+ charge points out there, many linked to hotels/restaurants/shopping centres. See the ZCW, Opencharge and other maps below.

    - Within a year or so Tesla will have rolled out there UK superchargers on main motorways for Model S, and perhaps any future EV manufacturers that licence their tech.

    - Tesla also have a little known grid of 15kw / 70amp chargers that's been in place for 4 yrs. It covers the entire UK if you assume a radius of 175 miles from each one.

    - Nissan Dealers also provide 50kw Chademo high power charge points for the Leaf fleet, although mostly not all accessible at night. These will soon be usable by the Tesla Model S.

    - There are literally thousands of 32amp / 7kw blue-commando outlets all over every industrial estate I've been to. However, whilst these are very handy on business / site meetings, they are not promoted anywhere as public charge points!

    - And as a last resort most EVs can be plugged into those 1 Billion+ mains sockets all over the UK :) ( I've been trying to guesstimate theoretically how many 13amp sockets there are in the UK and generally arrive at about 1.4 Billion .. !!!)



    Other factoids :-

    There is only about 8,000 petrol stations in the whole of the UK ... see the last map below.

    There are approx 34 million vehicles in the UK, 28 million of them ICE cars.

    There are only about 5,000 EVs in the UK at present. That will leap by nearly a 1,000 when Tesla Model S's start arriving mid year, with other EV sales this year taking the total to maybe 7,500 by Q1 2015.

    Apparently 96% of car drivers do less than 46 miles a day.

    Most ICE car owners don't seem to get that most EV's top up at night, have full range every morning, and that you don't fill them up with petrol every couple of weeks. Public charge points don't get used anywhere near as much as domestic overnight charging. But its nice to know they are there, especially if planning for long trips.

    Most EV drivers use them for town/city/commuting and don't care that they can't do 578 mile trips at 180mph like some of the ICE brigade bang on about.

    EVs are not for everyone and if you really do want to randomly drive to John O'Groats before breakfast then no worries - go buy a 2nd hand VW Passat TDi for £5k. Its still a free world. Mostly.



    Charge map websites and APP's

    There is not yet one combined charge map due to many suppliers jostling for superiority, and many of the location flags on the maps shown below do overlap. However, the vast majority of EV drivers will be relying on nightly top ups rather than depend on the growing charging network. Here's a few examples :-


    Open Charge Map - The global public registry of electric vehicle charging locations

    Our Electric Highway - For The Road - Ecotricity

    Home - Zero Carbon World

    Charge point map | Source London

    Live Map

    Charge Point Map | Plugged in Midlands

    PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find the nearest location to charge your electric car!

    Zap-Map - charging points map - UK electric car charge points


    OpenChargeMapMarch2014_zps7e327cb0.jpg

    EcotricitymapexampleMarch2014_zps20dd3e99.jpg


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Relative EV distances Vs top 100 >7kw sites in the SW. I prepared these maps a couple of years ago when taking a Tesla Roadster on a driving holiday all around the south and south west of England having driven down there from the Midlands. We did about 1500+ miles in 2 weeks. Funnily enough the hotel we mainly stayed in had an unannounced 7kw type 2 charge outlet and we also made use of the 15kw charger at Taunton on the M5 when having lunch on the way back home. Just for the hell of it we also plugged in at The Eden Project since they have an eco-car-charging area close to the main entrance which saves a lengthy walk from one of the large car parks.

    [​IMG]




    And just in case anyone is still reading, here's a petrol station map for the south west !!

    [​IMG]
     
  15. miimura

    miimura Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    4,126
    Location:
    Los Altos, CA
    After so much scrolling, I figured out what you meant by "deliberately OTT post".
     
  16. Dan43

    Dan43 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2013
    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Helpful though, thanks. I have an Ecotricity account and card and the M40 Oxford Services is my nearest fast charge point, south along the M40 into London and A40 it gets a both thin.
     
  17. Mark77a

    Mark77a Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    403
    Location:
    Poole, Dorset, UK
    Thanks PV4EV a most comprehensive post !

    The Ecotricity Type2 / Fast AC/DC charge points appear to be THE most useful as they are here now, on most motorway services we often 'pit-stop' at these anyway.

    I have the gear to suck out 7Kwh from these (32Amp via Type2><J1772><HC sharp's 'Can'><Roadster), and now I'm now trying to work out how to 'suck out' 63Amps or even 70Amps, single phase via either Tesla UMC or The Can (1 or 3 phase to 1 ?) ... any suggestions (or PM's) from more advanced UK electronics engineers VERY welcome :smile: (I'm mainly mech eng). ..

    Any info put in the pubic domain is extremely useful for the general advancement of EV use ... BUT with all the usual legal / safety proviso's "dont try this at home folks" / "use a qualified engineer" / "use a*se armour" / " insert your own legal/safety/HSE disclaimer here " provision:cool::smile:

    You Guys with Model S will soon be parking here ... ( and charging at hopefully 22Kwh ) if not at your very own superchargers (nv ! )
    IMAG0012.jpg
     
  18. arg

    arg Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    You aren't going to get more than 62A, since that's what those chargers supply (per phase), and there's no realistic way to make 75A single phase out of lower current 3-phase.

    However, it's not entirely clear what in your current setup is stopping you drawing 62A: people have reported plugging Model S into those chargers and seeing it report 62A pilot which should be compatible with Roadster. My understanding is that the Can is a straight-through adapter and rated at 75A already. Your Type2->J1772 is presumably something non-standard: is it active and limiting to 32A due to connector ratings?

    If the issue is down to your Type2->J1772, the challenge is mainly a mechanical one - where to obtain a 63A rated receptacle to mate with the connector on the charge point. I haven't discovered any so far - most are only 32A rated; one (expensive) option might be to trawl the Renault parts catalogue for a Zoe charge port harness.
     
  19. widodh

    widodh Model S 85 and 100D

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    6,388
    Location:
    Venlo, NL
    See my blog from earlier this year: Middelburg to Wales and back | Widodh

    I visited the UK with my Model S using the Ecotricity network.

    My car can charge at 32A again, so I could draw 22kW at those stations now or 43kW later with the CHAdeMO adapter.

    For the Roadster you could make use of 62A single-phase at those stations, but that would require some adapters which you have to make yourself.
     
  20. mgboyes

    mgboyes Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2014
    Messages:
    812
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    @widodh you say you're now back up to 32A. What has changed? Have Tesla fixed your car? With software or with a hardware change?
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC