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ChargeFox Ultra Rapid Network (350kW/HPC)

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
2,957
1,377
QLD, Australia
Pretty much... I don't think any of the third party companies are making money yet.. they are mostly reliant on grants from Fed Govt Arena and some State Govts.


They have to (typically) rent the site.
The install of those 350kW chargers is $100k+ ($40k + for 50kW), plus maintenance when people stretch cables or vandalism.
And on top of the wholesale price, you also need to cover demand charges (basically max draw out of a unit) - so an operator's worst case scenario is 2 cars arriving at a lightly used station at the same time.

As above Tesla is currently 51c/kWh.
In the past 12 months they've gone 42-52-47-51.

Chargefox is 32/40c/kWh (lower rate with roadside membership). Evie is 40/60c/kWh (higher rate for 350kW) and some of the lightly used Tas stations are even higher.

tbh they should just build i.e. 70-75 kw charging stations. its more than fast enough for most people traveling...
tritium has finally released their 75kw charger and i hope we will see a few of those at decent electricity prices.
 
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Vostok

Active Member
Jul 1, 2017
1,531
1,610
Sydney
I can't quite wrap my head around though why we're being charged at least 100% markup on the wholesale electricity price they charge. I guess Chargefox are in the business of making money. Just an observation.
I instead wonder how many years it will take for these third party operators to turn operational profits, let alone return on capital.
 

ZeeDoktor

Member
Dec 3, 2019
211
360
Sydney
I would have to agree with your thoughts. My sentiments in the original post were driven by my sometimes overly naïve attitude that we're all trying to make the world a better place and profit doesn't matter, which of course is a load of rubbish. It then boggles the mind even more that anyone would be willing to spend money on charging infrastructure when our governments only incentives appear to lay in promised charging infrastructure projects in the future (which will dilute the profits of those who build early charging infrastructure). Unless there is subsidy money hidden in those chargers being built by chargefox, evee and the likes today?
 

BCTS

Member
Feb 8, 2021
133
74
Melbourne
I would have to agree with your thoughts. My sentiments in the original post were driven by my sometimes overly naïve attitude that we're all trying to make the world a better place and profit doesn't matter, which of course is a load of rubbish. It then boggles the mind even more that anyone would be willing to spend money on charging infrastructure when our governments only incentives appear to lay in promised charging infrastructure projects in the future (which will dilute the profits of those who build early charging infrastructure). Unless there is subsidy money hidden in those chargers being built by chargefox, evee and the likes today?
I would have to think realistically that Chargefox would have to be getting some support now from Alternative Vehicle vendors now also.
Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, Harley Davidson, Hyundai, Mitsubishi and Nissan are all brands that I have seen charging at Chargefox stations in my time owning a Tesla over the last 3 months.
 

QBN_PC

Member
Feb 11, 2020
284
289
Queanbeyan
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BCTS

Member
Feb 8, 2021
133
74
Melbourne
QBN_PC:
Thanks for that link... so perhaps the more concerning element might be the timeframe of installation when it comes to ChargeFox vs Evie.
Maybe I'm somehow biased because they saved my bacon when I bought the Tesla coming back from Pickles Auction in Sydney, but it seems to me that Chargefox seems to have more sites online/built... but perhaps Evie has many more in other areas.
 

moa999

2020 3 SR+ MSM
Mar 4, 2020
787
582
Sydney, AUS
Think Chargefox started earlier... But both well behind Tesla.

Chargefox have deals with most of the non-Tesla manufacturers for free/discounted charging for 1-3yrs.. so I suspect they are getting some funds that way

Evie is also rapidly expanding their 3rd party billed chargers with the Vic CTR network as well, whereas Chargefox has Qlds Yurika/QESH network.

Per other threads a new grant round has just closed, so expect plenty more announcements in the next few months.
 

QBN_PC

Member
Feb 11, 2020
284
289
Queanbeyan
Chargefox is a smaller and earlier project. Phase 1 largely mirrored the Tesla Supercharger network on major highways, and it's basically complete. There's been unsubtle hints about Phase 2, but nobody is allowed to talk about it at this stage in the grants funding process.

Evie is a later and larger project, mostly in lesser towns on the major highways (mid-way between Chargefox sites), as well as a bunch of outer-suburban sites serving as urban-highway gateways (think of Seven Hills as a gateway to Putty Road and Bells Line of Road, as well as being handy if you're going from the M7 to the M2/NorthConnex). They're starting to get their rollout into gear. Kinda. Sorta.
 
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BCTS

Member
Feb 8, 2021
133
74
Melbourne
Chargefox is a smaller and earlier project. Phase 1 largely mirrored the Tesla Supercharger network on major highways, and it's basically complete. There's been unsubtle hints about Phase 2, but nobody is allowed to talk about it at this stage in the grants funding process.

Evie is a later and larger project, mostly in lesser towns on the major highways (mid-way between Chargefox sites), as well as a bunch of outer-suburban sites serving as urban-highway gateways (think of Seven Hills as a gateway to Putty Road and Bells Line of Road, as well as being handy if you're going from the M7 to the M2/NorthConnex). They're starting to get their rollout into gear. Kinda. Sorta.
QBN_PC:
I've been seeing signs about the Evie roll-out... In the Victorian area on some of those highways you mentioned etc.
Considering the hurdles with Power etc.. Chargefox did some good work in the timeframe they had.
 

QBN_PC

Member
Feb 11, 2020
284
289
Queanbeyan
QBN_PC:
I've been seeing signs about the Evie roll-out... In the Victorian area on some of those highways you mentioned etc.
Considering the hurdles with Power etc.. Chargefox did some good work in the timeframe they had.
My impression is that Chargefox goes out of their way to do things in smarter interesting ways, to cut costs & make things possible. Whereas Evie seems to go out of their way to do things the conventional way, despite higher costs, and despite sometimes not being able to make a site work.

Evie eventually ditched their site at Caltex (Ampol) Heathcote, because they couldn't get enough power to the site.

Chargefox didn't have enough power at their Goulburn site - so they considered either upgrading the grid connection, or alternatively, add lots of solar on the servo roof, and enormous batteries along the back fence. They did the latter. The servo has a grid connection of 180kW coming in, and it needs 30kW for servo systems. Chargefox mixes up the remaining 150kW, plus the solar output, plus the battery output, to run 750kW of chargers.

If the batteries at Goulburn trip, the 350s go splat, but the 50 chugs on just fine. Care to guess why?
 

cafz

Member
Jul 17, 2020
381
357
Australia
but it seems to me that Chargefox seems to have more sites online/built... but perhaps Evie has many more in other areas.
In terms of their own ultrafast sites currently live, Chargefox has 22 and Evie has 11.

It's not clear to me if other 50kW sites like Coles Buderim are Evie owned as well, or just operated (the branding there is all Evie though).
 

Vostok

Active Member
Jul 1, 2017
1,531
1,610
Sydney
@Hovean - “Exactly. Further research will also show the large amount of fundamental work the government is doing to enable the shift to renewables.“

If you mean the Federal Government, never forget that they wanted to abolish both ARENA and the CEFC (even though the CEFC is profitable). Only saved by cross-benchers in the Senate.
 

technerdx6000

Member
Mar 5, 2018
186
166
Queensland, Australia
tbh they should just build i.e. 70-75 kw charging stations. its more than fast enough for most people traveling...
tritium has finally released their 75kw charger and i hope we will see a few of those at decent electricity prices.
I disagree. 75kW should be the minimum speed DC charger at each site (backup AC chargers are welcomed too). Remember no car on the market can actually charge at 350kW today. Closest is the Taycan and the most popular car (Model 3) maxes out at 190kW on the tritium chargers.

Chargefox has the right idea with a 50kW charger and 350kW chargers at the same site.

Future sites should have minimum 1x75kW and 1x350kW.

Ideally they would have 2x75kW and 1x350kW for the lower traffic routes and 1x75kW and 2x350kW on the higher traffic routes
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
2,957
1,377
QLD, Australia
I disagree. 75kW should be the minimum speed DC charger at each site (backup AC chargers are welcomed too). Remember no car on the market can actually charge at 350kW today. Closest is the Taycan and the most popular car (Model 3) maxes out at 190kW on the tritium chargers.

Chargefox has the right idea with a 50kW charger and 350kW chargers at the same site.

Future sites should have minimum 1x75kW and 1x350kW.

Ideally they would have 2x75kW and 1x350kW for the lower traffic routes and 1x75kW and 2x350kW on the higher traffic routes

No because 350kw stations are very expensive to run and build and many sites here cannot physicially supply the power needed. Australia is not urbanized enough. 50kw chargers are way too slow for travel, especially as they only charge with 42kw and if the battery heaters are on for the first 30min they often only give 35kw. but doing high i.e. 2% to 90% charges arent much slower on 75kw compared to 350kw (190kw for model3).

Not everyone lives in sydney.
 
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cafz

Member
Jul 17, 2020
381
357
Australia
On site batteries can be used where it's not feasible to have a connection to support continuous 200kW+ use, to still allow many such sessions a day. Just like Chargefox have done at Goulburn (and maybe Port Macquarie?), and Tesla Superchargers are designed to work alongside Powerpacks.
 

RareEarth

Member
May 30, 2019
129
122
NSW Far South Coast, Australia
50kw chargers are way too slow for travel
Agreed, might be good for a stop for lunch but for long distance A to B travel the waiting can get tiresome. Still, they are better than nothing / showground 3 phase.
I haven't read much about the federal budget yet, I assume there was no large scale funding for high speed chargers along all the major interstate routes. Unlike other large but more populated countries we will need government intervention on a large scale for routes away from the east coast.
 
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technerdx6000

Member
Mar 5, 2018
186
166
Queensland, Australia
No because 350kw stations are very expensive to run and build and many sites here cannot physicially supply the power needed. Australia is not urbanized enough. 50kw chargers are way too slow for travel, especially as they only charge with 42kw and if the battery heaters are on for the first 30min they often only give 35kw. but doing high i.e. 2% to 90% charges arent much slower on 75kw compared to 350kw (190kw for model3).

Not everyone lives in sydney.
My point of view comes from the fact I live in Townsville. The two times I have travelled to Brisbane in my Model 3 have been agonisingly slow.

I realise the 350kW chargers are expensive, that is why only 1 is required at the moment for each site in the less trafficked areas.

Chargers which max out the Model 3 capability (Superchargers and Tritium 350kW) make a massive difference to trip time, on the order of hours compared to sub 100kW charging.

Don't get me wrong, I look forward to more 75kW chargers as they are significantly better than the 50kW ones, however 100+kW is required for highway driving.

Like @cafz has mentioned, these networks should be looking into battery buffers. Even a 200kWh/100kW battery at each site would change the grid demand profile (and therefore charges) significantly.
 
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Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
2,957
1,377
QLD, Australia
My point of view comes from the fact I live in Townsville. The two times I have travelled to Brisbane in my Model 3 have been agonisingly slow.

I realise the 350kW chargers are expensive, that is why only 1 is required at the moment for each site in the less trafficked areas.

Chargers which max out the Model 3 capability (Superchargers and Tritium 350kW) make a massive difference to trip time, on the order of hours compared to sub 100kW charging.

Don't get me wrong, I look forward to more 75kW chargers as they are significantly better than the 50kW ones, however 100+kW is required for highway driving.

Like @cafz has mentioned, these networks should be looking into battery buffers. Even a 200kWh/100kW battery at each site would change the grid demand profile (and therefore charges) significantly.

then you should realize the difficulties evie had even getthing their two 350 kw stations to cluden. the project was delayed by 6 months (or was it 9 months) coz they completely underestimated the power needed. Places like Bowen just cannot supply that amount of electricity. Evie is still struggeling to get their plans for Proserpine approved as they are still clueless how to get enough power for just 2 stations without tearing up the roads to lay powercables all the way from mackay.*

The reality of it is that we are mainly all doing deep discharge journies (I.e. I usually charge in Townsville, Proserpine, Carmilla, Rockhampton on my way down south) with recharge to 90% everytime we stop. And the SR+ probably stops more frequently. The time difference between a 75kw charger and a 350kw charger for the model 3 just does not justify the effort and investment needed.

A 10 - 90% charge on the 350kw charger takes me 35 minutes.
A 10 -90% charge on the 50kw charger takes me around 90min.
A 10-90% charge on a 75 kw charger (according to a SR+ graph so might be 5min longer on the LR) takes 40min

This just is not really justified at the moment. 75kw can be supplied even by exisiting chargefox sites - they can provide 50kw + 22kw AC already.
Model only charges with max 75kw above 50% anyway.


* im just as frustrated as you are when i drive down south. i asked evie just very recently when their proserpine charger was due as they told me Dec 2021 but it is now postponed indefinetely. I do drive between Cairns and Rockhampton quite regularly and I have also driven to Brisbane 3x last year.

On a bright side - you will get Rockhampton and Childers end of this year. So you only need to charge in Proserpine and Carmilla.
 
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