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Chargepoint Express Plus: First true Tesla Supercharger competitor 400KW

JoRey

Current Volt Owner, Aspiring Model III Owner
Feb 15, 2016
186
126
Anaheim, CA
ChargePoint just released the First charger on the market that blows the Tesla Supercharger out of the water. With the ability to charge at 400KW, using technology already found in Tesla Superchargers. The CEO of the company has also said that he would install a Tesla plug if Tesla worked with them and provided the proprietary information. (The ball is on Tesla's Court) No information on cost, just that it will be made available around the middle of this year. If tesla and chargepoint come up with some arrangement it would be the first universal fast charger on the market. Coupled with the billions the EPA got from VW it would prove the way for the electric car super highway. Toughs? Ideas? Concerns?

Chargepoint CEO Pasquale Romano shows off 400kW charging station, answers questions about Tesla adapter

 
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Az_Rael

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,653
8,941
Palmdale, CA
This would be awesome. More legit fast charging networks enabling long-distance travel can only be a good thing. Might be a good alternative ro a supercharger that is running really slow (or has a line 10 deep). I'd pay pretty good $$ for a fast charge if I could avoid a supercharger line on a long trip.
 
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Saghost

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2013
8,224
7,088
Delaware
I guess we'll get to find out what the current limit is on the CHAdeMO adapter and whether it can be raised with a simple firmware update. :)
 

JoRey

Current Volt Owner, Aspiring Model III Owner
Feb 15, 2016
186
126
Anaheim, CA
This would be awesome. More legit fast charging networks enabling long-distance travel can only be a good thing. Might be a good alternative ro a supercharger that is running really slow (or has a line 10 deep). I'd pay pretty good $$ for a fast charge if I could avoid a supercharger line on a long trip.

In the future im sure that you could pay a convenience fee to not have to wait for a charger. The two biggest problems is that its a universal charger and i doubt the Trump administration is going to spend the money from VW on electric car charging infrastructure. So im guessing most of these are going to be installed by the private sector and the states.
 
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timk225

Active Member
Mar 24, 2016
2,050
2,305
Pittsburgh
How much current can the Tesla connector safely flow?

In the video he says the charger can flow 400 amps at 1000 volts. Which is 400 KW. But Teslas don't charge at 1000 volts, they are around 350-400 volts, depending on which battery you have, so at that voltage, even at 400 amps, it is a 140KW-160KW charger. Which is still more or less the same as a Supercharger.
 
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David99

Active Member
Jan 31, 2014
4,856
7,164
Brea, Orange County
How much current can the Tesla connector safely flow?

The cable used in Superchargers don't have much room for more Amps. They can't increase the current (Ampere) without swapping out the wiring at Superchargers. I'm not talking about the last few feet that are visible with the handle. It's the entire wiring that is sized that way. Increasing the voltage is possible without changing the cables, but no Tesla car would be able to use the higher voltage.

My guess is that Supercharger V3 and next generation Model S and X will be higher voltage (close to 1000 Volt). It's the only way to get significant increase in power.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,540
6,351
Los Altos, CA
In the future im sure that you could pay a convenience fee to not have to wait for a charger. The two biggest problems is that its a universal charger and i doubt the Trump administration is going to spend the money from VW on electric car charging infrastructure. So im guessing most of these are going to be installed by the private sector and the states.
The Trump Administration has no say in how the VW money is spent. It's up to VW to choose how and where to spend it as long as it fits the parameters of the settlement. They could choose to use this ChargePoint hardware, or not. Other vendors will have 350kW hardware that will meet VW's purposes just fine. It is in VW's interest to build a network that will support the upcoming Audi eTron long range BEV, so I expect that will be the focus of their fast charging spending.
 

arg

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Aug 22, 2012
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Cambridge, UK
My guess is that Supercharger V3 and next generation Model S and X will be higher voltage (close to 1000 Volt). It's the only way to get significant increase in power.

But first you need new cells/chemistry - it would be easy to take the cells in the existing pack and re-wire them for (say) 800V in place of the current ~400V, but it wouldn't make the slightest difference to the charge rate since the individual cells are already charging at maximum rate on current superchargers: the re-arranged pack would have to charge at half the current it does today.

Once you have better cells, then higher voltage may be the best way to charge them, but do we have any indication that Tesla (or anybody else) has such cells in prospect?

The only thing we know for sure about Tesla's future plans is that they are going to a slightly larger cell (and hence fewer of them) - all things being equal that would give slightly slower charging (being more difficult to cool). Likewise, Model 3 is expected to have a smaller capacity pack than Model S, hence if made from the same cells it will need less current/power to charge at the same rate (in percentage or miles range per charging hour terms).

It is true that there have long been chemistries around that give faster charging than the cells chosen by Tesla - but the trade-off for faster charging is lower capacity, and since Tesla is already pushing the limits of weight to get the capacity needed to make the whole supercharging/long-distance-travel concept work, going for less capacity to get faster charging doesn't really appeal.

Of course it's possible they have a battery breakthrough yet to be announced, but in the absence of that, Tesla has no reason to roll out higher voltage charging for the next couple of years. If the cars haven't gone high voltage, they could theoretically give superchargers high voltage capability just for future-proofing, but that would lose the economy of scale they get from using the same charger modules in the superchargers as they do in the cars.
 

wycolo

Active Member
May 16, 2012
3,099
468
WA & WY
> Chargepoint wants to use the Tesla plug/handle. And has one rigged up.

So they got one out of a wrecked MS, and the results are: ??
--
 

dhcp

Member
Oct 15, 2016
297
224
San Mateo, CA
I think it would be great for consumers bad bad got the Tesla competitive advantage. It would make more cars able to take long trips, one of the big tesla differentiators.
 

Zoltrix77

Member
Apr 28, 2015
178
89
Melbourne, Australia
But first you need new cells/chemistry - it would be easy to take the cells in the existing pack and re-wire them for (say) 800V in place of the current ~400V, but it wouldn't make the slightest difference to the charge rate since the individual cells are already charging at maximum rate on current superchargers: the re-arranged pack would have to charge at half the current it does today.

Once you have better cells, then higher voltage may be the best way to charge them, but do we have any indication that Tesla (or anybody else) has such cells in prospect?

The only thing we know for sure about Tesla's future plans is that they are going to a slightly larger cell (and hence fewer of them) - all things being equal that would give slightly slower charging (being more difficult to cool). Likewise, Model 3 is expected to have a smaller capacity pack than Model S, hence if made from the same cells it will need less current/power to charge at the same rate (in percentage or miles range per charging hour terms).

It is true that there have long been chemistries around that give faster charging than the cells chosen by Tesla - but the trade-off for faster charging is lower capacity, and since Tesla is already pushing the limits of weight to get the capacity needed to make the whole supercharging/long-distance-travel concept work, going for less capacity to get faster charging doesn't really appeal.

Of course it's possible they have a battery breakthrough yet to be announced, but in the absence of that, Tesla has no reason to roll out higher voltage charging for the next couple of years. If the cars haven't gone high voltage, they could theoretically give superchargers high voltage capability just for future-proofing, but that would lose the economy of scale they get from using the same charger modules in the superchargers as they do in the cars.

I see an updated Model S/X using the new 2170 gigafactory cells being announced in the near future, within the next 3 months, perhaps much sooner than we expect. I then expect Tesla to announce and upgraded DCFC speed for the new vehicles, including the Model 3. What that charge rate maybe is anyone's guess, but I don't, initially at least, believe it will be 350-400kW, perhaps 250kW, but I'm guessing.

Existing vehicles will be limited still to 120kW with new and upgraded supercharging sites, but will still have advantages for existing vehicles as there will be more capacity to share power on the supercharger sites, meaning less issues being stuck paired with another vehicle.

I'm not so sure Tesla will move away from its proprietry connector, especially seeing as ChargePoint is seemingly willing to add it to its new 400kW stations. I still honestly see CHADeMo going nowhere long term outside of Japan, and would expect to see CCS1 and Tesla connectors being the long term norm.

In Europe, I'm still hoping Tesla just converts to CCS 2, it can continue to use is non standard implementation of the type 2 connector for its own chargers, but just add the DC pins to allow simple adaptor free access to 3rd party DCFC.

Back to ChargePoints new express charger, it looks very impressive, with plenty of flexibility for customising the installation to meet each sites needs. I do hope there won't be too many singles however. 62.5kW is pretty weak, at least with the two stalls, you can have up to 125kW if you are the only vehicle charging.
 
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Saghost

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2013
8,224
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Delaware
I see an updated Model S/X using the new 2170 gigafactory cells being announced in the near future, within the next 3 months, perhaps much sooner than we expect. I then expect Tesla to announce and upgraded DCFC speed for the new vehicles, including the Model 3. What that charge rate maybe is anyone's guess, but I don't, initially at least, believe it will be 350-400kW, perhaps 250kW, but I'm guessing.

Existing vehicles will be limited still to 120kW with new and upgraded supercharging sites, but will still have advantages for existing vehicles as there will be more capacity to share power on the supercharger sites, meaning less issues being stuck paired with another vehicle.

I'm not so sure Tesla will move away from its proprietry connector, especially seeing as ChargePoint is seemingly willing to add it to its new 400kW stations. I still honestly see CHADeMo going nowhere long term outside of Japan, and would expect to see CCS1 and Tesla connectors being the long term norm.

In Europe, I'm still hoping Tesla just converts to CCS 2, it can continue to use is non standard implementation of the type 2 connector for its own chargers, but just add the DC pins to allow simple adaptor free access to 3rd party DCFC.

Back to ChargePoints new express charger, it looks very impressive, with plenty of flexibility for customising the installation to meet each sites needs. I do hope there won't be too many singles however. 62.5kW is pretty weak, at least with the two stalls, you can have up to 125kW if you are the only vehicle charging.

Tesla can't add pins for CCS2 on the car's connector without a major redesign of the charge port area - the section of the taillight they integrated the charge port into isn't large enough.

They'd also be left with a fleet of tens of thousands of cars which couldn't be retrofitted without cutting the metal of the fender.

I think the only sensible move for them at this point is to bring out an adapter. They'd need that for the legacy cars anyway.
 

Zoltrix77

Member
Apr 28, 2015
178
89
Melbourne, Australia
Tesla can't add pins for CCS2 on the car's connector without a major redesign of the charge port area - the section of the taillight they integrated the charge port into isn't large enough.

They'd also be left with a fleet of tens of thousands of cars which couldn't be retrofitted without cutting the metal of the fender.

I think the only sensible move for them at this point is to bring out an adapter. They'd need that for the legacy cars anyway.

I'm not suggesting they retrofit existing cars, just add the pins to the new cars. I'm aware space is tight in the current charge port location, but that doesn't mean there cannot be a solution on future cars and updates.

Adaptors are a messy solution, yes for legacy cars, but to be avoided going forward.
 

kort677

Banned
Sep 17, 2015
4,801
2,996
florida.
why do some people need to make this into a competition?
why not call it an expansion of charging options?
personally I would use a FREE tesla SpC before I'd use a pay unit.
the future looks bright, I hope more companies realize that EVs are the future and I am looking forward to the day when chargers outnumber fuel stations.
 
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JasonA-EV

Member
Dec 7, 2016
234
159
Los Angeles,CA
I guess we'll get to find out what the current limit is on the CHAdeMO adapter and whether it can be raised with a simple firmware update. :)
The physical connector/wiring for the current plug is 62.5kw but out in the wild for charger units you'll only see the 44kw Nissan units (Summitomo) or the mix of 50kw units like ABB, Efacec, etc for the highest power.

The plug on the front of the KiaSoul EV is the 100kw CHAdeMO plug supposedly but those chargers are next gen and only in Europe still. Nissan better get off their ass!
 

Galve2000

Active Member
May 20, 2013
1,037
370
NYC
what kind of shielding is required for something that provides 800 V or 1000 V?

I read somewhere on this forum that as per code all USA appliances must be shielded for at least 600 V, which is basically the little rinky-dinky cover found on everyday wires. my question is: what is required when the 600 V limit is exceeded?
 

David99

Active Member
Jan 31, 2014
4,856
7,164
Brea, Orange County
It is in ChargePoint's interest to have an option for Tesla cars as there is a lot of them on the road. It's up to Tesla to play ball and actually follow through with their 'everyone can use our patents' policy. If they are really open, they would provide the specs for the Supercharger system so others can make their charging stations compatible for Tesla cars. No one is going to risk coming out with a commercial product that is based on reverse-engineering and hacking an undocumented system that operates at 120 kW or more. Let's see how Tesla is cooperating. All other charging standards are open and documented.

I'm more than happy to pay for a fast charger that is making my trip more convenient. I have done so many times using CHADeMO stations where no Superchargers were available.

As for faster charging than current SuC, I believe the second generation Model S/X will have that first and exclusive, not the Model 3. As it is now the Model 3 will already have similar specs and range as the Model S at half the price. No one would buy a Model S any more if it didn't offer a few exclusive features.
 
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