Charging Anxiety Log

[Larry Chanin]

I agree that for General Production reservation holders a second on-board charger and a High Power Wall-Mounted Connector is a good first place to start cutting expenses when finalizing your configuration. I also agree that looking backward to the experiences of Roadster owners this only reenforces this point of view. In addition, these two items can be added at a later date when the available infrastructure is known with more certainty.

Nevertheless, I would like to make the observation that we are looking backward so those experiences, while relevant to the past and perhaps the immediate future, may not be relevant to folks who plan on taking road trips just a few years from now. In just three years there may be more than 100,000 Model S and Xs on the road trying to get from point A to point B. In that timeframe perhaps another 100,000/year of Gen III's will start rolling out of the Fremont factory. Of course that many longer range Teslas may also motivate the competition to also build longer range vehicles in an effort to keep up. I can envision the net effect of this being a rapid expansion of high capacity Level 2 chargers.

Larry

 

[strider]

Unless I've missed an installation or two, that's the complete list of where your second charger can be utilized. The only likely public additions will be new Tesla stores. Everything else is sub-50 amp or quick charging, with no indications of that changing any time in the next few years at least. If you won't be traveling through those cities, you won't be using your second charger.

Smorg, you are missing the unbelievable generosity of other Tesla owners. The only time I've needed to charge away from home was at a private HPC in Rocklin, CA (thanks Jack!). So like Doc said, as more and more folks buy Teslas they can serve as way stations for other travelers.

Also, I just don't see Tesla having the capital to deploy superchargers in any kind of rapid way. West Coast, Northeast, and perhaps (as a PR stunt) along an interstate or 2 so they can claim "coast to coast" superchargers. Their money is going to remain tied up in getting new models out the door. I realize Chademo has limitations and so Tesla felt compelled to go it alone but they will be a tiny company for the foreseeable future and not one who can bring a lot of $$ to bear for such a build-out. That leaves a lot of the earth not covered by superchargers.

70A J1772's can be used by anyone and it is reasonable to think that over the lifetime of a charging station that more vehicles will have the charging horsepower to take more current.

 

[SCW-Greg]

Show me one non-Tesla non-exotic EV "on the horizon" that can charge at higher than 10kW/hour.

I don't believe there is going to be a high amperage AC charging network in the US.

Well to your (implied) point, that you can always add a charger later - and no car I can point to now - I am hearing Beemer is talking about all EV models by 2014. Knowing Beemer, they'll be gunning for Tesla. So I think the success of this car will bring high amp EVs in just a matter of a couple years. I'd rather get it installed now, rather than realizing in two years I could have used it. Your banking on the industry not following Tesla's lead, not 100% with super chargers, or even as Canada is seeing with 70a network. I think in two years half a dozen players will be following much of what Tesla is doing.

Dont get me wrong... your argument for chargers/charging log is excellent education for many of us (myself for sure), thinking logically how, when and where you use the car, etc... For many of us, money isn't the issue - at least not on this item. It's higher on the (security) list than say 21" wheels, or "I'm getting the MSP, why would I not get everything" kind of thinking.

 

[ModelS1079]

Great thread. One of the most useful for me. Couple of thoughts:
Who could ever need more than a Gigabyte of RAM?
I'll never need more than a 7MP camera.
I'll get a cell phone but only use it for emergencies.
Looking ahead:
My wife's Model X is connected to our first of two chargers, my daughter's Model G awaits: "Dad, can you hurry up and charge the S so I can head out skiing with my friends in the G..."
It is my abundant hope that we are all way off the mark, and that in seven-ten years 100A feed/80A usable chargers - or more (quad chargers built in? 600 mile range battery?) - are plentiful.
Appreciate the Roadster owners' advice - still up in the air a little. Thinking I may keep the Twins and hold off on the HPWC, parsing the risk and benefit. Bostonites: I was told there is a high power charger between NYC/Boston now but need to confirm this. All: you are welcome to charge up, double-speed, at my place if I do go HPWC!

 

[kendallpb]

This is an interesting and useful thread . . . and frustrating.

As for the cost of an HPC at home, don't forget to count the added installation charges for larger breakers and thicker wires, not to mention possible main panel upgrades.

I'm 90% sure I'll need work done regardless (hint: my dryer's not in the garage; it's upstairs). My garage has a scary panel that IIRC I was told isn't to code, plus I doubt I have any fancy outlets there. Hourly rates (just getting someone to the house) seems like a big chunk of any work, so as long as I have to pay someone to come here and they have to do what might be major work anyway . . . why not maximize it?

(The "I can be a way station for other Teslans" crossed my mind, but I have some misgivings about that.)

The rest of you should stop being fearful and stop rationalizing.

And the rest of you should stop being condescending. ;-) Okay, with the grumpiness out of the way...

...I understand that for us newbies, the Roadster owners' experiences are useful and should be heeded, as is info on the limitations on places to use them, when an HPC or twin charger wouldn't be useful, etc. But we know our own situations and can use this information to figure out what's best. Yes, without hearing "no one needs this" (sometimes from people who have it and have used it--"do as I say, not as I do"?). And it's clear from comments here already that there are at least a few that will need this.

Heck even if I only need it a couple of times a year (e.g., my two-trip Thanksgiving weekends), IMHO it's worth it. Like insurance--a small price to pay, but I won't be screwed if I don't have it when I do need it.

Plus isn't it a bit of future-proofing, for me anyway? In 2013, we'll have a Model S and an ICE, if all goes well. But the ICE will be replaced (not sure when), probably by at least a hybrid, but possibly by a Model X (or some other EV). Wouldn't twins and an HPC be useful, with two Teslas? We keep different hours, so whoever charges first when they get home, if they're done before the other goes to bed, swap cables and the second car tops off, too. Even if we both just took long trips and/or have to get up early for a long trip.

I'm trying to think ahead to situations like that. The "you'll never use it" comments seem short-sighted. Am I crazy?

Plus, you know . . . yeah, I have unhealthy doses of ignorance and "charge anxiety," I'm sure. ;-) Which is why (minus the condescension) I love threads like this. So much I need to learn. Gah....

 

[ModelS1079]

Kendallpb, you can charge at my house but you need to lay off the coffee.

 

[kendallpb]

Kendallpb, you can charge at my house but you need to lay off the coffee.

LOL. But I don't drink coffee! ;-) Thanks. Do you serve tea while I wait? (I'm just a hyper night owl.)

And see, just when I was thinking "do I want some stranger at my house"...I read your note and laugh, thinking, "yeah I don't mind folks from TMC stopping by." Stop by any time, but wait till I get a new (sub?)panel in the garage with proper outlets.

 

[kendallpb]

these two items can be added at a later date when the available infrastructure is known with more certainty.

HPC I knew, but the twin charger, too? I thought that (like a few other things) should be gotten up front, if one wants it?

Do we know what the cost will be (roughly) to install? Is there just an empty hold somewhere that this gets added to, or a piece of equipment that gets swapped out, if one upgrades from one to two, or . . . ?

Apologies for the barrage of Qs. ;-)

 

[mitch672]

(snip...) Bostonites: I was told there is a high power charger between NYC/Boston now but need to confirm this. All: you are welcome to charge up, double-speed, at my place if I do go HPWC!

Yes, there is an HPC is New Haven, CT, I know because "Cinergi" told me about it when he drove his Roadster from Newton, MA to the Model S test drive event in Mawah , NJ... I was going to drive down with him, but I am rather large, it would have been a wee bit cozy on that long drive (if I coud even have squeezed myself into the Roadsters passenger seat)

 

[smorgasbord]

Smorg, you are missing the unbelievable generosity of other Tesla owners.

Actually, in this thread I suggested someone start a sticky thread for people willing to share their HPCs.

70A J1772's can be used by anyone

Only Teslas can use more than 30amps, and that looks likely to be true for at least the next 3 years, probably more.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Where in the US can you charge at more than 10Kw/Hour?

If you live/travel in CA: Salinas, Atascadero, San Luis Obispo, Santa Maria, Goleta, Barstow, Coalinga, Orland, Yreka, Davis, Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Fremont, and every Tesla Store, which adds: San Jose, Newport Beach, Santa Monica

For the rest of the country: Miami Beach (not just yet), Lone Tree, Seattle, White Plains, Portland, Oak Brook, Houston, Bellevue, Dania Beach, New York, Chicago, Wash DC, and Scottsdale. I think Boston is getting a store, too.

Unless I've missed an installation or two, that's the complete list of where your second charger can be utilized. The only likely public additions will be new Tesla stores. Everything else is sub-50 amp or quick charging, with no indications of that changing any time in the next few years at least. If you won't be traveling through those cities, you won't be using your second charger.

As for the cost of an HPC at home, don't forget to count the added installation charges for larger breakers and thicker wires, not to mention possible main panel upgrades.


Now, if you live along a common road trip route and want to host fellow Tesla owners stopping by, well that's the best reason I've yet heard. Whoever does that first should start a sticky thread for people to post their available HPCs and location, assuming they're not just going to list it in the public databases.

The rest of you should stop being fearful and stop rationalizing. Roadster owners, please add your experiences to this thread.

Ellensburg, WA about 120 miles east of Seattle on I-90, has an HPC. For anyone in WA, the 20 kW chargers allow you to leverage a very strategically placed resource. For me, even if they don't put a super charger there, a 30 minute charge there would be perfect to give me some breathing room on the way to my parents house in the 60 kWh pack.

 

[Larry Chanin]

HPC I knew, but the twin charger, too? I thought that (like a few other things) should be gotten up front, if one wants it?

Do we know what the cost will be (roughly) to install? Is there just an empty hold somewhere that this gets added to, or a piece of equipment that gets swapped out, if one upgrades from one to two, or . . . ?

Apologies for the barrage of Qs. ;-)

Hi Kendall,

Adding a second charger at a later date is speculation on my part, but I believe it to be reasonable. We have to believe that Tesla must have the means to replace a failed second charger, and as you state there obviously must be a space for it. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is technically feasible to add a second charger at a later date, by using a procedure similar to replacing a failed charger. Obviously, there is no assurance that Tesla will offer this upgrade, nor do we know what the fee would be.

Larry

 

[smorgasbord]

Heck even if I only need it a couple of times a year (e.g., my two-trip Thanksgiving weekends), IMHO it's worth it.

Does your Thanksgiving travel take you up or down the CA coast or along Hwy 5? Does it take you by any existing or planned or likely Tesla store?

Wouldn't twins and an HPC be useful, with two Teslas? We keep different hours, so whoever charges first when they get home, if they're done before the other goes to bed, swap cables and the second car tops off, too.

You'd be way better off with 2 UMCs each delivering 40 amps than a single HPC whose cable you'd have to swap in the middle of every night. That would be a nightmare.

I am hearing Beemer is talking about all EV models by 2014. Knowing Beemer, they'll be gunning for Tesla. So I think the success of this car will bring high amp EVs in just a matter of a couple years.

BMW is talking about EVs with the typical smallish battery for city dwellers, or with a gas engine to boost performance/range (i3 and i8) - but certainly nothing that can take advantage of more than 10Kw/hour charging.

My wife's Model X is connected to our first of two chargers, my daughter's Model G awaits: "Dad, can you hurry up and charge the S so I can head out skiing with my friends in the G..."

Why does faster charging on your S enable your daughter to drive the G any sooner? Both charge overnight at 40 amps with 2 chargers.

 

[smorgasbord]

Ellensburg, WA about 120 miles east of Seattle on I-90, has an HPC.

That's great.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any app that lets you search specifically for high amperage charging stations.

 

[shokunin]

I am hearing Beemer is talking about all EV models by 2014. Knowing Beemer, they'll be gunning for Tesla. So I think the success of this car will bring high amp EVs in just a matter of a couple years.

I like BMW's, but have several friends that have had serious electrical issues over the years. Mechanically wonderful machines, but electrical systems seemed to be less well engineered. I know they'd be hesitant about getting a BMW EV, but they'd lease them anyways and would exchange before any warranties were up.

 

[SCW-Greg]

I like BMW's, but have several friends that have had serious electrical issues over the years. Mechanically wonderful machines, but electrical systems seemed to be less well engineered. I know they'd be hesitant about getting a BMW EV, but they'd lease them anyways and would exchange before any warranties were up.

Well if BMW's getting in to the EV business, doing it half a**ed would be be like doing their motors half way. You can bet, if they're doing this, it will be a good experience.

Btw, I've had an older 528, my brother's had a half a dozen of 3 series (swears be 'em), and my parents have one of the latest 750's... none of them have ever had any issues really. I have had a total lemon of S500 though.

Edit: This still relatively new tech being developed, and 5+ year history is hard to come by - in masses. So I agree with you, leasing wouldn't be a bad idea for any brand in this business.

 

[Eberhard]

more and more electric car maker are recognizing the importance of speedy charging. While i charge my Roadster with max. 7.2kW 32A) while my socket would allow up to 22kW (3x32A). The Smart ED will as an option have an 22kW charger, the little Renault ZOE even 43kW. No need for CHAdemo. But 90kW DC would be nice, even for the Roadster.

 

[spleen]

But at the end of the day, if it makes you feel more comfortable to have an HPC and twin chargers then you should do it. Being anxious is no way to live.

This I totally agree with. You have to do what makes you feel comfortable. And certainly there are those that have driving schedules/distances where it may be important to have twin chargers / HPC installed. It's funny, when I first got my Leaf, I was extremely nervous about driving anywhere near the last 4 charge bars. Then I ran it to the first low battery warning x 2 and ever since then, since I know better the capacity of the battery, I'm a lot less range anxious (and I've never even gotten to the 2nd low battery warning). I can relate to a lot of the range anxiety in this thread but a lot of it will likely be ameliorated once you start driving your Model Ss and get comfortable with the range.

 

[efusco]

Hi Kendall,

Adding a second charger at a later date is speculation on my part, but I believe it to be reasonable. We have to believe that Tesla must have the means to replace a failed second charger, and as you state there obviously must be a space for it. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is technically feasible to add a second charger at a later date, by using a procedure similar to replacing a failed charger. Obviously, there is no assurance that Tesla will offer this upgrade, nor do we know what the fee would be.

Larry

I asked specifically about adding a second charger later at one point. the reply was a bit obscure, but they said they highly recommened getting any features I may want later installed now. Now, that said, I can't imagine why it couldn't be added later...the issue is, at what cost? No service department within ~1500 miles of me, labor to do it, time while it's done, etc. are no small matter--I suspect the cost would easily be 3 times having it done at the time of build.

 

[spatterso911]

I'm getting the twin chargers and HPC for three reasons.

1. I work nights and in order to best capitalize on TOU rates, I need my car charged completely in a short window of time on the nights that I work consecutively.

2. My wife wants the Model X, and I want no conflicts when it comes to charging schedules, although this is a weak reason, because she has far better opportunity to charge due to reason #1

3. I live about 5 minutes off of I15, 10 minutes from I10. 3 minutes from the 210 Freeway. This means anyone headed to Vegas from San Diego, or from Vegas to LA can charge at my home.