TimothyHW3
Active Member
Same goes for 90%. As long as you drive right away. But most people will not.
Well, it doesn't seem like it is that simple as we see here even after a CAC reset
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Charging everyday?
- Thread starter BobChaput
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Same goes for 90%. As long as you drive right away. But most people will not.
Well, it doesn't seem like it is that simple as we see here even after a CAC reset
TimothyHW3
Active Member
It is just better for the battery and BMS calibration. The slower the better
Again based on what?
You pulled that idea out of your ear and are stating it as fact.
4KW is 13hour to fully charge the smallest Model 3 pack, 2kw would be more more than a day on the smallest pack excessively slow and wastefully running the charging system.
And slower is not always better. As with many things, there is a moderate level that is best, rather than an extreme. I saw some battery charging study data a while back that I have had a hard time locating again that showed that extremely low speed charging has a different kind of negative effect on battery life, because the amount of time spent being in that process of being recharged is causing some low level of damage, and it is helpful to get it recharged at a low-to-medium rate, and get it over with, so it can go back to "resting" or slightly draining. If you are turning down your charge speed so much that it is quadrupling or more the amount of time that the battery is in that charging state, that can be not great for it either. So getting it done in the levels of several kiloWatts is slow enough, and you don't want to have the battery spending half or more of every day in the charging process.
TimothyHW3
Active Member
Yes, I pulled it out of my ear...after years of Li-ion experience in the RC field...
Did I say anything about convience or optimal charging loss?! No, I was talking about prolonging the battery life itself and optimum charging for the battery AND BMS recalibration.
Here is a Video with a guy from Germany who's never driven faster than 70mph and almost always charges his battery with solar at the lowest possible , 3kW(10,000kWh on AC and 1000kWh on DC). He has a proven degradation of less than 1kWh(read from the CAN) on his 30,000miles 90D from 2016 and the same on his older Model S.
He has been doing batteries and Solar for almost 40 years now ...
He is there in the comments, Holger, ask him about it. They talk about the degradation around the 8:30 mark.
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TimothyHW3
Active Member
As with a lot of things(and I understand why he is trying to poke holes in my comment) you should track that study - this was the suggested method for NiMH, not Li-ion. I think it had something to do with "memory", but don't quote me on that.
Li-ion like it slow, so that the cells can get filled out evenly and have low cell imbalance. Cell imbalance in am EV is very important, because if they are not in balance the cells can charge to the lowest available voltage.
Explaining the Do's and Don'ts of Battery Charging - Battery University
In the chart they use 1 hours as rapid charge and 3 hours as slow charge. If we translate that to kW on AC for Model 3 that will be 11kW/3 is around 3.x kW. Again, very basic math that is no where near scientific, but you can shoot an email at the battery University and quote the forum post.
Or do whatever you like.
morningstar
Member
On the chart, the x-axis is cycles, so 1000 cycles for a Model 3 is 310,000 miles. At 100,000 miles (330 on the x-axis) there is little difference among all but the two least extreme ranges. In fact, the green and blue curves(85-25 and 100-50) lie on top of each other. So discharging to a low level can be as bad as charging to a high level.
No, it was lithium ion, not NiMH.
I think people are losing perspective on this. There is slow, and then there is sloooooooow. You are talking about comparing "rapid charge" to something that takes 3 times as long. That is still fairly medium-slow speed and isn't the extremely low speed charging that the study was talking about. And that study you talked about above referred to 3kW power level as "the lowest possible", which it certainly isn't. I'm talking about the people who use 120V connections and turn the amps down to like 5 or 6, so it's using like three fourths of a kiloWatt, and the battery is spending 15-20 hours a day in that recharging state. That is the level of ultra-slow, continual charging that showed some negative effects. So it was more about how the statement "slower is better" is not open ended and becomes untrue at the extreme margins.
TimothyHW3
Active Member
Well, I specifically said 3kW. I never said anything about 5A over 120V single phase which is 600 Watt. That is rediculous as the phantom drain on the car might be more...
The lowest we can get the car in Europe as it uses 3 phases is about 3kW and this to me is the optimum way to charge, but to each their own.
The lowest we can get the car in Europe as it uses 3 phases is about 3kW and this to me is the optimum way to charge, but to each their own.
RainyDaze
Member
I appreciate reading all this information on battery charging, battery care and battery management systems. Tesla owners are early adopters and most like understanding the tech.
However EVs will never go mainstream if owners are expected to fuss this much over battery care. This is especially burdensome to those with lesser range to begin with. Need cars with more range and smarter bms. IMHO
However EVs will never go mainstream if owners are expected to fuss this much over battery care. This is especially burdensome to those with lesser range to begin with. Need cars with more range and smarter bms. IMHO
no fussing at all....
set your limit to 80-90%
plug it in when not in use at work or at home
that's it that's all
the car will look after itself no need to worry
davewill
Active Member
Luckily, all of this fussing is indeed 100% unnecessary. Just set it to 90% as the manual suggests and plug it in every night. You'll be just fine. Nobody can demonstrate that a single Tesla owner has ever benefitted from any of these strategies. I'm not saying they are completely worthless, but nobody NEEDS to follow any of this.
TimothyHW3
Active Member
Not what the experience so far has been on a Model 3. Keeping the car high in the 90%s for a long time - bad for the battery. Pluging it in and always charging from 60%-80%, sure way to trip your BMS and having shorter range.
But we can demonstrate the opposite (just read the forum) that following your advice is a sure thing to trip the BMS and have lesser range.
This is always the advice from Tesla, when people complain that they get less rated range when they charge to 100% and find less rated range displayed - small incremental charges from 60%-80% each day might help the battery, but if the BMS thinks you have less capacity that will not help you much. Also you are keeping the battery in the high % all the time which is def. not good for the battery itself.
Keeping the battery charged between 30%-90%, meaning let it go to 30%, plug in, let it go to 90%, but so that it reaches 90% when you can drive away (in the morning) and plug it in as soon as it reaches 30% seems like the best advice so far.
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Well I guess it depends on what you want to believe
I'll suggest there are far more people that do not post their good experience than folks that love to question/complain/criticize. The variables in range are so many there is no way you can compare one M3 to another.
Temperature, elevation, driving habits, wind etc etc.
My M3 has been great, no issues following Tesla's charging advice at all.
Hey Timothy. I’m having knee replacement surgery tomorrow and won’t be driving my car for a couple of weeks. Can you suggest a proper state of charge to leave my car in for 2 weeks? Maybe 60% and plugged in?
TimothyHW3
Active Member
60%, plugged in, and the max charging set to 70%. And try to disable all the things I mentioned in my vampire drain post - car alarm, sentry, plug the usb stick out, disable that smart summong feature with v10 and also if possible turn off wifi so that the car doesn't pull any updates.
Depends on what you mean by "issues" - we are not talking drive train nor wheels, just battery. If you never go below 30% and you charge to 90% you will never "notice" any "issues", because you wouldn't need that extra range. Even if you drive a longer trip you still wouldn't "notice" any issue, because most of the time, people take a SUC stop at 150miles and that will be possible even at theoretical 40% degradation...
But that doesn't mean that your BMS is fine or that you can use the full potential of the battery. You MIGHT, but you also MIGHT NOT.
I think people stress over charge kw too much.
Let us compare to RC toys.
If a charger takes 3 hours to recharge those non-thermally managed batteries from 0-100 that is considered fairly slow right? Maybe not trickle but slow.
Now think of the car on a UMC2 how long does it take to fill a 3 pack? That has the benefits or sophisticated BMS and thermal management.........
Let us compare to RC toys.
If a charger takes 3 hours to recharge those non-thermally managed batteries from 0-100 that is considered fairly slow right? Maybe not trickle but slow.
Now think of the car on a UMC2 how long does it take to fill a 3 pack? That has the benefits or sophisticated BMS and thermal management.........
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