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Charging infrastructure within condo buildings + HOA affects?

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by snyderkv, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. snyderkv

    snyderkv Member

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    Forum members,

    Hello and thanks for having me

    My first post is a question regarding the best way to go about a charging infrastructure within a downtown San Diego luxury high rise accomadating owners with an already high HOA fee

    I ask because I'm trying to buy downtown but only to places that will allow a standard outlet against the parking space within the secure underground parking.

    I was told that some buildings charge a flat fee that can be as high as $200/month for a dedicated charging station which offsets the gas savings.

    I'd like to simply install a standard 220v/24a outlet to get a full charge overnight during off peak hours for like $4 bucks, possibly using existing infrastructure and negating permits? but it appears as though things are more difficult or designed to be money makers for people willing to pay to make a statement, and not to save on gas or be less dependant of government resources

    Can someone help me with details on how to go about such an architectural change?

    Thanks everyone for your time

    - - - Updated - - -

    I haven't figured out how to delete threads or edit posts, so I will just try and retype my sepller/grammer errors here

    Forum members,

    Hello and thanks for having me

    My first post is a question regarding the best way for a condo building owner to permit a charging infrastructure in the underground parking of a high rise condo to accommodate e-car owners. I am not the building owner or HOA manager but wanted to come up with a design for the board members that would answer common questions. If anybody has examples of buildings doing this already, I'd like to get there contact info for questions

    I ask because I'm trying to buy a condo downtown that permits a standard outlet against the wall of my parking space within the secure underground parking

    I was told that some buildings charge a flat fee that can be as high as $200/month for a dedicated charging station which offsets the gas savings.

    I'd like to simply install a standard 220v/24a outlet to get a full charge overnight during off peak hours for like $4 bucks, possibly using existing infrastructure and negating permits? But it appears as though things are more difficult or designed to be money makers for people willing to pay to make a statement, and not to save on gas or be less dependent of government resources

    Can someone help me with details on how to go about such an architectural change?

    Thanks everyone for your time
     
  2. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Hi snyderkv,

    I don't know the answer to your question, but you'll be able to do more things as you post more. Also the first few posts are moderated so sometimes they don't appear right away.

    The kind of plug you want is a NEMA 14-50, which is a standard 4 wire 50 amp RV plug. You don't need to say that it is for an electric car.
     
  3. meloccom

    meloccom Moderator Aus/NZ

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    #3 meloccom, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
    I have put a power point in the garage of my condo building.
    Probably the most favorable factor that helped me, apart from a reasonable HOA, was the fact that all the electricity meters were located close to the parking area.
    That way I only had to apply to run a cable from my meter to my parking space on the same level.
    Now there is no question as to who pays for the electricity my EV will consume as it's through my meter.
    So if there is a condo you are considering with the meter room near your car space, that will assist in the process.
    However sound out the HOA before you buy, as even with the most favorable electricity setup you will still need to get it through them. :scared:
    P.S. Look for EditPostIcon.jpg icon at the bottom of your post, although it may not appear until after you've made a certain number of posts.
     
  4. joefee

    joefee Over 2 Million TMC page views

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    Our HOA is trying to assess EV owners a monthly fee (not determined yet) but I'm not sure they can do this without meters on the individual outlets in the garage (e.g. most garage outlets are on the building meter) and I heard that HOA's can not "resell" electricity. What is more complicated is that 3 of us have had 240V Nema outs installed by the condo developer, before the HOA was in control, as part of our sales agreement. I do not think they have clear control over these "exclusive use" outlets. This is all new stuff for everyone … we will have to see what happens as we go forward!
     
  5. snyderkv

    snyderkv Member

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    Great, thanks for the responses. I thought I was the only one who wanted a plug in a parking space of a high rise condo.

    It is uncharted territory but I think as more poeple start driving e-cars that new building code will start to require a different standard for metering and power outlets.

    Jerry, NEMA 14-50? What's wrong with a 24a dryer type plug? Is this just too slow of a charge for your tastes or is their an issue with Tesla's mobile adapter using the 24a plug?

    Joe, have you heard of e-car meters? I wonder how small these are and if they can connect to a building meter and assigned to an owner. I read this online but don't have much info on how they integrate into a building meter.

    I will ask our HOA if they have a building meter or individiual meteres for each owner and where they are located. I will also have to look into e-car meters. Maybe I will ask a lawyer who specializes in that area
     
  6. tdiggity

    tdiggity Member

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    #6 tdiggity, Nov 6, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
  7. cinergi

    cinergi Active Member

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    It should never be that much. I'd brainstorm directly with the electrician -- have them walk you through what they're thinking, and then question all of it. E.g. does it have to be separately metered (vs. flat-rate monthly charge)? Can they relocate your parking spot closer to the electrical closet? etc ... You may even reach out to Tesla for help.
     
  8. snyderkv

    snyderkv Member

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    tdiggity,

    Wow that writeup was great and should answer all board questions or at least come with a plan to move forward

    Cinergi, agreed. These were the things mentioned in the tdiggity attachement. I'll copy and paste some key points here to save someone a couple hours read

    Ryan,

    Attached is exactly what I've been looking for and should ansewer any HOA board member questions. I copied some key points below including Appendix for 3 different EVSE options. I'm all for #III obviously and would love to hear you make a case for it during the board meeting. You should read the entire pdf

    Appendix
    Appendix I. Billing options under the LA Green Building

    [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]The Los Angeles Green building code requires that new high-rise residential construction be equipped with outlets on 208/240V 40A circuits for 5% of the parking sports. This requirement may limit the feasible billing arrangements for electricity used at these outlets, because in many cases the outlets will be connected to the building’s common area meter. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]There are several approaches that could be employed in charging with common metered outlets, each with advantages and disadvantages
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][FONT=Corbel,Corbel][FONT=Corbel,Corbel][FONT=Corbel,Corbel]I. Flat Rate [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]All electricity use is billed to the landlord and tenants pay a monthly flat rate for access to EVSE the outlets. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]Advantages: The cost can be lumped in with existing rent transactions. Equipment purchased by residents can be taken when they move. This arrangement allows for purchase of inexpensive EVSE.
    Disadvantages: It may be hard to coordinate multiple users. There is no TOU incentive. A flat rate offers no incentive to reduce use, because the cost to fuel the vehicle does not change with less or more driving. Users may suffer from adverse selection, since the system is more attractive for heavy users, which will increase the average cost
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][FONT=Corbel,Corbel][FONT=Corbel,Corbel][FONT=Corbel,Corbel]II. Third party facilitates billing [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]An Electric Vehicle Service Provider (EVSP) develops and provides a billing mechanism that must be used with the equipment they have provided. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]Advantages: Such a system can work with equipment connected to the common area meter. The cost to access the EVSE can accurately reflect kWh and TOU rates. Multiple EV drivers could share one EVSE and be billed separately. The third party has an incentive to attract and retain users, so equipment will likely be well maintained and services will be high quality.
    Disadvantages: Third parties may overprice for metering and billing services because they have a local monopoly. TOU incentives might not be reflected in their pricing. Also, EVSPs may choose not to install equipment in buildings low adoption.
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][FONT=Corbel,Corbel][FONT=Corbel,Corbel][FONT=Corbel,Corbel]III. Resident pays for new TOU meter [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]The resident establishes new service exclusively for charging the EV. This requires the power/outlet to be disconnected from common space meter and connected to the new TOU meter. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]Advantages: The resident gets the cheaper electricity rate available for EV charging. The TOU rates incentive is in place. The electricity usage is billed directly to the resident.
    Disadvantages: The resident must bear the additional cost meter, panel, and modification to existing wiring. The resident may surrender the value of the new meter and panel if they move.
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    - EV owner benefits from EV Project, federal and state subsidies. Building associations do not because they are considered non-ev owners

    - As mentioned in "Technology and Installation Basics," Level 1 requires four times less power and can be installed when less electrical capacity is available. This policy would benefit highly motivated EV adopters to plan and install their own private charging arrangements by facilitating a relatively inexpensive charging setup that is less likely to exceed the existing electrical capacity. This may circumvent the need for costly electrical load monitoring and electrical capacity upgrades.

    - Civil Code, preventi ng Community Interest Developments (CIDs) from restricti ng installati on of EVSE in common spaces, provided that residents meet a checklist of requirements including: covering the cost of the electricity and installati on, hiring a licensed contractor, com- plying with architectural standards, and obtaining insurance coverage

    - Level 1 charging (120v 12a), which can accommodate up to 50 miles of driving on one ten-hour nightly charge, is adequate for many drivers within LA . This would benefit only if level II required panel/circuit upgrade. Level II benefits from subsities

    - Employ an informed mediator to aid MUD residents who are impeded by negotiation problems with their building managements. The mediator will meet with building management as an impartial party (not motivated by profit, unlike the electrician/installer) and explain legal considerations, billing arrangements, other common solutions to hurdles, and help draft a plan for moving forward

    Thanks

     
  9. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    The electric utility for the area you are looking in is SDG&E. SDG&E main office is in San Diego proper and I thought they had an EV customer Service Rep. to help with these sort of things. Suggest giving them a call or meeting them in person; they may already have a list of condo's that have installed outlets or at least be able to provide you with info to help you through the maze.
     
  10. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    The dryer type plug charges at 24 amps, the RV type plug charges at 40 amps (assuming 240V, both are less with 208V) which is 67% faster for about the same price. Bear in mind that you can only charge at 80% of rated.

    There is no problem with charging at the lower rate, but it's a lot slower. Tesla has adapters for both, but from a practical perspective there are far more places where the 14-50 is likely to be reachable with the UMC than the dryer type plug so if you use the RV, then you won't have to keep switching adapters (assuming you have only one UMC). Basically, any place you can plug in an RV you can plug in a Model S or Roadster. A stove is likely to be beyond UMC distance.

    In addition, if you live in an area where the charge is different for different times of day, the faster charge may keep you in the lowest cost window.
     
  11. sp4rk

    sp4rk Banned

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    Now there's an oxymoron.

    I applied to put solar panels on my roof ... they said, as required by law, yes.

    But refused to allow me to take responsibility for my shingles.

    Same as saying no.
     
  12. snyderkv

    snyderkv Member

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    Thanks, I was able to get the HOA to install 110/220v via 4 16amp breakers but have not incorporated individual metering method. They are trying to find a solution to that. I'm not sure how the electrical companies install EV TOU meters or if there are third parties that will provide the service. I will look at evcharge.net and SB 880. If anyone has advice or some other expert who has worked with charging stations within multi-unit condos, please let me know
     
  13. tdiggity

    tdiggity Member

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    Do you have a dedicated spot?
     
  14. snyderkv

    snyderkv Member

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    Yes, newer development in downtown must provide underground parking as a city/state requirement but forgot the exact details
     
  15. snyderkv

    snyderkv Member

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    So far I have emailed EverCharge and Southern California Edison as they provide a complete MUD monitoring package but they are obviously a for profit company so it would seem a standard 110v/240v outlet would best benefit the tenant as you would be only paying the going kwh rate
     
  16. tdiggity

    tdiggity Member

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    #16 tdiggity, Feb 15, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
    It really depends on how extreme you want to go here. You could contact a lawyer and see what they think. CA SB 880 is very clear in that it says YOU have the right to install whatever you want. The social dynamics of the situation are another topic...

    You'll want to get an electrician in there to take a look at the whole setup. TOU should be doable if your charger is exclusive use.

    Using someone like EverCharge is what I consider a last resort because you're paying a premium for their services.
     
  17. joefee

    joefee Over 2 Million TMC page views

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    @snyderkv

    I do not have any info on e-car meters.


    I think metered service is the fairest way to install EV charging in condos. Does anyone know for sure that CA HOA's can legally charge an arbitrary flat fee to "resell" electric from the building grid?
     
  18. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    What I read was they can charge you a fee or amount for what you use, but not to make a profit on the sale was how I read the intent.
     
  19. joefee

    joefee Over 2 Million TMC page views

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    @Lloyd

    How would they know what to charge you if you are on the building meter? The EV owner would have to keep tabs on electric used in the parking space and self report/pay for use. The law says the cost must be "reasonable" and leaves it up to the HOA and the EV owner to come to terms. Do you have any other legal info?

    http://luskin.ucla.edu/sites/default/files/EV%20Charging%20in%20LA%20MUDs.pdf

    "In summary, S.B. 209 mandated that CCRs that effectively prohibit or “unreasonably” restrict installation or use of EVSE are “void and unenforceable”.51 “Reasonable restrictions” are those that do not “significantly increase the cost or decrease its efficiency...”52 Approval or denial of a request to install or charge, if approval is neces- sary, must be provided within 60 days.53"
     
  20. tdiggity

    tdiggity Member

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    #20 tdiggity, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
    SB 209 is old, use SB 880.

    * This is not legal advice. Get a lawyer. *

    Some advice for people dealing with HOAs. The 60 day clause in SB880 starts when you present all the required information about a charging station. It doesn't start when you ask the HOA. If you are going to use the "HOAs cannot unreasonably restrict a charging station", then you should get a lawyer. Since my last post, I got a lawyer because I was tired of having the HOA use legalspeak against me. I was not prepared to talk to the HOA because I'm not a lawyer. The lawyer will help you with this:

    (1) The owner first shall obtain approval from the association to install the electric vehicle charging station and the association shall approve the installation if the owner agrees in writing to do all of the following:
    (A) Comply with the association’s architectural standards for the installation of the charging station.
    (B) Engage a licensed contractor to install the charging station.

    (C) Within 14 days of approval, provide a certificate of insurance that names the association as an additional insured under the owner’s insurance policy in the amount set forth in paragraph (3).
    (D) Pay for the electricity usage associated with the charging station.

    Your lawyer will help you put together a proposal for the architectural committee to consider. That means you'll need to find an electrician and get him to draw up plans for all the details about the install. SolarCity is good at this, they'll provide architectural drawings that show how the conduit will be routed.

    It really depends on how crazy your HOA is. If they are against this, or on the defensive, you'll want to give them as little time as possible to sort this out. The reason is because if they dont' want to let YOU have a charging station for some reason (1. it could not scale out to the whole building because there isn't enough power to go around, it will look ugly, blah blah), then you're giving them more time to figure out a solution that doesn't make much sense. There are a few stories about HOA's installing ChargePoint stations that cost $1/kwh or more. If your HOA uses a 3rd party to do this, then that 3rd party can charge whatever they want (you could always sue...).

    A note on fairness. My building cannot support an electric vehicle in every space. The HOA used this against me, saying that it wasn't fair if not everyone could have a charging station. This is the grey area of SB880. It doesn't have to be fair. It's all about you. That's what a few lawyers told me, anyway. Maybe some practicing california Lawyers can give us some insight :)

    So you have to decide if your HOA is reasonable or not. If they aren't, I recommend getting a lawyer.

    * This is not legal advice. Get a lawyer. *
     

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