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Charging Standard Changes? Impact to M3 value?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by insaneoctane, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. insaneoctane

    insaneoctane Member

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    What is the time table before we see competitive charging infrastructure from others? With VW spending $2B on EV charging infrastructure and 5 other companies agreeing to work together on infrastructure and Porsche talking about 800V charging, I am wondering how long Tesla holds onto their infrastructure lead? Of particular concern for me is the quick adoption of quicker charging rates that make my future M3 less valuable / desirable because it only charges at 170mi/30 minutes. I was hoping to get SC V3 on the M3, but that doesn't appear to have happened. Any perspective that the charging outlook isn't volatile and I am not about to get screwed?
    VW is installing ultra-fast 320 kW chargers in California as part of its $2 billion EV infrastructure plan

    5 major automakers join forces to deploy 400 ultra-fast (350 kW) charging stations for electric vehicles in Europe
     
  2. chronopc

    chronopc Member

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    I'm not sure I want to charge at 800V. That can't be good for the longevity of the battery.

    I don't think you need to worry. We'll see what these other companies can do, but honestly I'm pretty happy with 170 miles of charging in 30 minutes.
     
  3. boaterva

    boaterva Supporting Member

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    And until someone comes close to Tesla's penetration of Superchargers, not sure how anyone can compete.
     
  4. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    Lip service.
     
  5. chronopc

    chronopc Member

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    It would be great if these other companies build additional charging stations. That will further eliminate range anxiety. I'm sure there will be adapters available for us Tesla owners to take advantage.
     
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  6. ahagge

    ahagge Member

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    I'm actually more curious about Elon's tweets from last year regarding upping the kW rating on the Superchargers (V3 as he called them). Someone had asked about a competing 350 kW charger and he'd replied to it as "a child's toy". I was really hoping we'd see this level of charging being part of the Model 3, but perhaps it's being developed only for the "Tesla Semi". Oh well...
     
  7. Waiting4M3

    Waiting4M3 Active Member

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    You should probably plan on the 2017 M3 becoming obsolete in 2 years, by the 2019 M3. I really don't know if any of the competitors will come through with something better, but Tesla for sure will.
     
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  8. chronopc

    chronopc Member

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    Seems like all the major car manufacturers is targeting 2020 to release their Telsa killer.
     
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  9. Trips

    Trips Member

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    Take a look at Nebraska and how much is really going to fast charging. From what I can tell, only $1.5 million will be used for chargers. That is not a whole lot in the big picture.

    From: Events

    14. Update of VW Settlement Proposal from NCEA for I-80 DCFC
    McCollister reported that in the next 6 months, 4 or 5 sites would be chosen along I-80
    and that VW would own these stations.


    15. Update of NCEA Request for 15% VW Allotment for EVSE
    McCollister stated that Nebraska will get 11.7 million from the VW settlement and that
    15% can be used on EVSE.
     
    • Informative x 1
  10. AlanSqB

    AlanSqB Dog Chauffeur

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    Speculation: The DCFC rate of charging on the Model 3 is being artificially limited. There is way more there than we're being allowed to use at this time. It will be opened up after Model S catches up in order to maintain the "S gets it first" promise.

    Also, Tesla Superchargers work. They are rarely down, and when they are, there are more at each site to make up for it. Every other DCFC company puts 1 or 2 chargers at each site and then they use contract labor to maintain them. Often our non-Tesla DCFC's here in Colorado go months without any attention when they're broken, and that's big companies like nrg EVGO and Greenlots.

    Try driving a Leaf or a Bolt regionally for a few years. You'll give up hope on anyone coming up with any solution that holds a candle to what Tesla is doing. They are playing a completely different ballgame in a whole other country.

    TLDR: Nobody is anywhere close to having a network that even approaches the Tesla SC network.
     
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  11. insaneoctane

    insaneoctane Member

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    Anybody think that the new 2170 cells maybe are SC V3 ready, but the info isn't released yet for the standard anti-sell reasons?
     
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  12. jsmay311

    jsmay311 Member

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    I doubt you have much to worry about, at least in the short run.

    As I understand it, most of the increased charging power in these next-gen DCFC chargers comes from increasing the max operating voltage from 500V to 1000V, which means that only EVs with similarly high battery pack voltages would be able to take advantage of these chargers' increased capability.

    But a hypothetical EV with a ~800V battery would then not be able to use any of the existing 500V DCFC infrastructure -- unless such an EV was designed with a battery pack that could switch its voltage depending on which charger it was plugged into. (I would guess that this is doable from a technical standpoint by switching 2 halves of a pack from series to parallel, but I have yet to seen any news suggesting that Porsche or any other automakers are currently planning on going down this path. And there may well be some technical hurdles to doing this that I just can't think of.) Without this capability, any 800V EV will be a pretty awful value if they can't use any of the existing chargers.

    Furthermore, even if you had a higher pack voltage and/or special liquid-cooled cables and connectors that allowed much higher amperages, you'd still likely be limited by how much power today's cells can handle. Between Tesla and GM (the only automakers currently making 200+ mile EVs), neither seems willing to expose their cells to much more than 1.2C or so (and, in GM's case, not even 1C) for more than a few minutes. So until automakers start building long-range EVs with cells that can handle significantly higher charge rates, the next-gen DCFC infrastructure basically a moot point until then. I'm sure this will happen eventually as cell technology continues to advance, but presumably today's high-C-rate cells come with some other disadvantages, like cost or energy density, that make them undesirable for long-range EVs.

    Over the longer term, of course, today's EV's resale value will suffer as new EV technology continues to improve and costs continue to come down. But that's pretty much inevitable. You'll find yourself waiting forever if you worry too much about that.
     
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  13. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    I highly doubt it. The 2170 cells have been optimized for cost reduction, nothing else.
     
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  14. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    320 kW charging is still a dream. No car, shipping or announced, can use it. I don't see Tesla's Supercharger lead slipping anytime soon.
     
  15. Runt8

    Runt8 Member

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    Not that I disagree, but do you have a source for this?
     
  16. drees

    drees Active Member

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  17. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    Agreed.

    You'd think people would've stopped this the-model-3-will-have-EVERY-bell-and-whistle nonsense by now.
     
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  18. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    It will be YEARS before there is a comparable competitor to the Tesla charging network. Years.

    Whenever it does actually happen, Tesla Will make an adaptor for its vehicles to use both.

    There should be next to no concern over this.
     
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  19. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    #19 KarenRei, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
    1. VW has stated that their charge network will use "open standards" that can be widely utilized, without specifying more. Expect multi-cord stations. Probably not good to expect Tesla connectors, though.

    2. It very much will happen over the next couple years - it's part of their legal settlement to build it.

    3. Supercharger V3 should almost certainly be rolling out by then. We know little about it apart from that it will be battery buffered and "make 350kW look like a child's toy". No word on whether that's for high power divided among many vehicles or whether it supports high power to individual vehicles - and if the latter, whether that's through higher voltages, higher currents, or both.

    4. As noted elsewhere, higher voltages requires HV packs to take advantage of it - otherwise it's just wasted money. HV packs in their basic form not only cannot charge on current infrastructure (although, as noted, there are workarounds such as center taps); they also have poorer internal redundancy (more cells needed in series to reach the desired voltage), aka, higher degradation expected; have higher insulation requirements; and may (or may not) require compromises in the drive unit.

    5. Higher charge currents require either multiple cables (a real hack solution) or cooled cables (much more realistic, and something Tesla has been working on) in order to keep their weight / flexibility manageable.

    6. Regardless of the use of higher voltages or currents, higher charge rates mean more internal pack heating, which requires more cooling, and as low of coolant temperatures as allowable to maximize the rate of heat flow from the cell core to the exterior. Scaling up the onboard system several times over is probably not realistic, meaning that you probably need offboard coolant routed in through the cable and through an onboard heat exchanger.

    7. It's worth noting that M3 has a strangely large charge port area compared to MS and MX. And the internal diagrams show lots of space under the surface, too. My presumption is that Tesla designed that space to be so large so as to make it easier to fit larger charge connectors there as-needed.

    8. It's also worth noting that Tesla is now in CharIN, the group which will be making the next CCS standard. Hopefully Tesla and CCS will eventually globally unify, with a very high power, capable connector that's as compact as possible. In such a case, the provision of charge adapters and/or backwards compatibility cables at charge stations can be expected as almost a certainty. Hopefully Tesla will be able to stop them from making some pointlessly-backwards-compatible giant Frankenconnector as the standard.

    My primary hope is that we'll end up with:
    * A "New CCS Global Superconncetor" with both high voltage and cooling/high currents supported by the standard.
    * 5 cable pedestals in the US: J1772 (for AC charging), CHAdeMO, CSS Combo, Tesla connector, and New-CCS.
    * In the EU I'd hope for 3 cable pedestals (CHAdeMO, New-CCS, and CCS Combo with the combo section detachable/retractable and the Type 2 being able to provide either AC or Tesla-style DC).
    * Many pedestals per very-high-power charger, and that the chargers are buffered.
    * Old chargers retrofit with new pedestals.
    * After 5-10 years of the new standard, all older cables phased out of the pedestals, with older vehicles instead relying on adapters

    I guess we'll see. I sure hope we're not still stuck with a patchwork decades from now :Þ
     
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  20. GSP

    GSP Member

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    The Porsche Mission E has been announced, with 800 V charging that likely will approach 320 kW power and speed.

    I also don't see Tesla's lead slipping anytime soon. The VW stations and others are great, and will add more options for Tesla owners with Chademo adapters.

    GSP
     

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