Tesla has made the move on the Gigafactory and chsrging network. GM hasn't made similar moves.. But that doesn't mean they aren't thinking about it. GM has _already_ made straegic structural moves and investments in electrification, with a lot of focus on in-house expertise. GM doesn't have to move as fast as Tesla. It can wait and see what happens with the Bolt, and if successful, then make the decision on the large investments needed to get to high volume. To me GM is the manufacturer most likely to succeed.
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Chevrolet Bolt: 55 Pre-Production Cars Made And Exceeding 200 Mile Range Target
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Tesla has made the move on the Gigafactory and chsrging network. GM hasn't made similar moves.. But that doesn't mean they aren't thinking about it. GM has _already_ made straegic structural moves and investments in electrification, with a lot of focus on in-house expertise. GM doesn't have to move as fast as Tesla. It can wait and see what happens with the Bolt, and if successful, then make the decision on the large investments needed to get to high volume. To me GM is the manufacturer most likely to succeed.
jerjozwik
Active Member
After having a discussion about the Bolt on reddit, I did a bit more research on GM's Gamma II platform and realized that the Bolt is very straight forward BEV conversion of the Chevy Trax/Buick Encore/Opel Makka. I knew it was based on the Gamma G2SC platform, but I didn't realize just how close it was going to be to it siblings. The recent videos and spy shots reinforce that this is a much more straight forward conversion.
Chevrolet Trax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Opel Mokka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chevy Trax:
Buick Encore:
Bolt:
It's not surprising that GM has gotten the basics of the Bolt up and running as the platform is already well sorted as there are multiple shipping vehicles including other CUVs based on the Gamma 2.
If you take the base price of a Buick Encore ($25,000), delete the ICE portions, add in the BEV portions sans battery (motor, inverter, charger, high voltage wiring, battery controller, better computers with better telematics) for about even pricing and then add in $13,500 for a 45 kWh battery, then the price is basically what they announced ($37,500). I think it is reasonable to assume that the initial production runs of this vehicle are not intended have positive gross margin, but rather grab 4 ZEV credits.
I actually went to my local GM dealer and checked out a Buick Encore, just to personally get a feel for the dimensions. The Encore's wheelbase is 100.6 inches. By comparison, the BMW 328i has a 110.6" wheelbase. The track in both is almost identical at just over 60 inches. The Model S wheelbase is 116". There is headroom, so raising the floor a bit and lowering the outside skirt should provide some room for a floor mounted battery, but will probably be lumpy like the Leaf's battery (higher under the seats). But still there isn't all that much room for the battery. I have a hard time seeing that this vehicle will have a 50-55 kWh battery given the dimensions.
Given the actual sizing of the vehicle, the expected NMC chemistry and costs, and the aggressive price point, I have a hard time believing this vehicle will have 200 miles of EPA range as I think this vehicle will have closer to a 40-45 kWh usable battery capacity necessary to achieve 200+ miles of UDDS range. At 1.9C, a 45 kWh battery can charge at 85 kW, which lines up with 200 amp CCS (400 volts x 200 amps = 80 kW). That might be why we haven't seen a push for a revised CCS spec for level 3 DC charging > 200 amps with a vehicle that is expected to arrive sooner rather than later.
Chevrolet Trax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Opel Mokka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chevy Trax:
Buick Encore:
Bolt:
It's not surprising that GM has gotten the basics of the Bolt up and running as the platform is already well sorted as there are multiple shipping vehicles including other CUVs based on the Gamma 2.
If you take the base price of a Buick Encore ($25,000), delete the ICE portions, add in the BEV portions sans battery (motor, inverter, charger, high voltage wiring, battery controller, better computers with better telematics) for about even pricing and then add in $13,500 for a 45 kWh battery, then the price is basically what they announced ($37,500). I think it is reasonable to assume that the initial production runs of this vehicle are not intended have positive gross margin, but rather grab 4 ZEV credits.
I actually went to my local GM dealer and checked out a Buick Encore, just to personally get a feel for the dimensions. The Encore's wheelbase is 100.6 inches. By comparison, the BMW 328i has a 110.6" wheelbase. The track in both is almost identical at just over 60 inches. The Model S wheelbase is 116". There is headroom, so raising the floor a bit and lowering the outside skirt should provide some room for a floor mounted battery, but will probably be lumpy like the Leaf's battery (higher under the seats). But still there isn't all that much room for the battery. I have a hard time seeing that this vehicle will have a 50-55 kWh battery given the dimensions.
Given the actual sizing of the vehicle, the expected NMC chemistry and costs, and the aggressive price point, I have a hard time believing this vehicle will have 200 miles of EPA range as I think this vehicle will have closer to a 40-45 kWh usable battery capacity necessary to achieve 200+ miles of UDDS range. At 1.9C, a 45 kWh battery can charge at 85 kW, which lines up with 200 amp CCS (400 volts x 200 amps = 80 kW). That might be why we haven't seen a push for a revised CCS spec for level 3 DC charging > 200 amps with a vehicle that is expected to arrive sooner rather than later.
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purplewalt
Active Member
Thanks for your brilliant homework techmaven.
It does appear that GM will have a running head-start for the Bolt compared to the Model 3.
Most of the chassis, body, dash, interiors can easily be adapted/retrofitted from their existing model lines.
Does it need to be "great"?
Probably not.
As long as it is mildly handsome and does not have the weird mobile flair/character, it should be a hit.
The major work that GM will need to complete (and prove out) will be technology WRT to new Electric motor and drive train, battery and its configuration, a bit of tweaking the suspension for the new weight and how it is distributed, maybe a bit of reworking the dash and certainly the building charging network and the long distance infrastructure and acquiring and developing associated business partners.
The design of the body and accommodation for the occupants does not have to be best-in-class, just reasonable.
The range and recharging network does not have to be as fast as Tesla's Supercharger Network, again just reasonable.
Hitting the market FIRST with a 200+ mile mid-priced EV will be a huge win for GM (and everybody).
First to play in the mid-priced long-distance EV sand-box gets huge bragging rights and best shot at the first round of bona-fide EV buyers.
If they achieve the accredited EPA mileage goals and have sufficient production, they can start selling ZEV credits to other manufacturers (if they don't require them all for themselves).
And then they can work on a larger model as their second effort.
It does appear that GM will have a running head-start for the Bolt compared to the Model 3.
Most of the chassis, body, dash, interiors can easily be adapted/retrofitted from their existing model lines.
Does it need to be "great"?
Probably not.
As long as it is mildly handsome and does not have the weird mobile flair/character, it should be a hit.
The major work that GM will need to complete (and prove out) will be technology WRT to new Electric motor and drive train, battery and its configuration, a bit of tweaking the suspension for the new weight and how it is distributed, maybe a bit of reworking the dash and certainly the building charging network and the long distance infrastructure and acquiring and developing associated business partners.
The design of the body and accommodation for the occupants does not have to be best-in-class, just reasonable.
The range and recharging network does not have to be as fast as Tesla's Supercharger Network, again just reasonable.
Hitting the market FIRST with a 200+ mile mid-priced EV will be a huge win for GM (and everybody).
First to play in the mid-priced long-distance EV sand-box gets huge bragging rights and best shot at the first round of bona-fide EV buyers.
If they achieve the accredited EPA mileage goals and have sufficient production, they can start selling ZEV credits to other manufacturers (if they don't require them all for themselves).
And then they can work on a larger model as their second effort.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I personally don't care if it's dedicated or not - unless the generic platform imposes unnecessary compromises.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
A generic platform, even one designed with BEVs in mind, will have to accommodate many drivetrains, so it won't be the optimal solution a BEV. For example, even when you can use the pack as a stressed member, it can only be used to increase rigidity, but for a dedicated platform you can use it to reduce weight (because you can assume the battery is always there). And the only true "skateboard" designs right now are dedicated platforms (Model S and i3).
Mary Barra was talking in the linkedin "interview", emphasizing efficiency everywhere, particularly lightweighting. I expect the Bolt to be a developmental model, and definitely not batteries stuffed into an existing car, which which hamper development. The Volt 2 has hit 50 AER, so has moved towards a mainstream, cost-centered focus, and cell technology and other powertrain technology is on the verge of allowing affordable long-range BEVs, so it makes sense that the long-range BEV becomes the developmental model. I think platform more and more just says which factories will build a car.
Chevy pulls ahead timetable for Bolt EV
I think the race is heating up. I'm sure Chevy wants to beat Nissan to the market with the first affordable 200+ mile EV. Since Nissan has so tightly controlled any news about Leaf 2, it is difficult to say where they are w.r.t. Leaf 2 timeline.
I think the race is heating up. I'm sure Chevy wants to beat Nissan to the market with the first affordable 200+ mile EV. Since Nissan has so tightly controlled any news about Leaf 2, it is difficult to say where they are w.r.t. Leaf 2 timeline.
SmartElectric
Active Member
This again? The Smart ED, Leaf, Soul EV, Mercedes BClass ED, all have their battery under a flat floor.
The Smart ED is rear wheel drive like the i3 and Tesla.
I have both a Smart ED and a Tesla, and I can tell you, the Smart ED is extremely well engineered, and not in any way a "conversion" like Ford Focus EV (etc).
The Chevy Bolt can use an existing platform and place the battery low under a flat floor and still use the "bones" of a global vehicle platform that is also the base of gas powered vehicles, and this would not compromise the design in any serious way, judging by the quality of engineering Chevy has already demonstrated with Volt and Spark EV.
Not defending GM, just not comfortable giving less credit where due.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Just putting the battery under the floor is not a skateboard platform. Neither the Leaf nor the Soul EV has a flat battery. The Leaf battery has a part that takes up the rear seat area, so the charger was put in a hump behind the rear seats.
http://www.nissan-global.com/JP/TECHNOLOGY/FILES/ntm13.jpg
The Soul EV doesn't have a flat pack either (the pack is shaped to take up space under both the rear seats and front seats). While they did an impressive job packaging vs the ICE version it still sacrifices 5.4 cubic feet of trunk area (18.8 vs 24.2), 11.8 with seats down (49.5 vs 61.3).
Kia Presents Details On Soul EV Battery - Video
The Smart, B Class, and i-MIEV all had a "sandwich" type architecture even as ICE vehicles (with both Smart and iMIEV being RWD). That made them have an area under the floor similar to the skateboard design. I consider this design as pretty close to a skateboard design (a step above simple platform sharing). However, again, the pack doesn't serve as a weight reducing stressed member (only a chassis stiffening stressed member at most), because the chassis was already designed without the battery in mind. A quick google didn't find any media or advertising about the battery pack being a stressed member (or load-bearing in different terminology) for those vehicles.
To be clear, I'm not filing all the non-dedicated EVs under the "conversion" umbrella. I just see a dedicated platform as being superior to a shared platform (even one designed or suitable for EVs), which is in kind superior to a "conversion" (like the Focus you point out).
Until I see it, I remain skeptical, esp. given an obvious shared platform. I am not impressed with their packaging on the Volt (both 1.0 and 2.0), and GM actually seemed to have made far more customization there vs the Cruze than here with the Bolt vs the Trax (the prototypes look like the Trax with some slight body panel changes having seen the comparison pictures).
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The smart was originally designed with an electric drivetrain and battery in mind, according to Daimler. Fun fact
I can't really tell what the difference is supposed to be, as even the installation of the battery pack on a smart looks exactly like what's done on Tesla. Which makes sense given the partnership between Daimler and Tesla for the Gen II smart ED. It's a thin, narrow pack that probably constitutes more of the vehicle's floor than a Tesla battery does, due to the size difference.
Regardless of the specifics, the battery pack fits extremely well on a smart and makes into quite an awesome little car. Took it for a test drive a while back and it corners like a beast.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Source? And are you talking about the third gen or the second gen?The smart was originally designed with an electric drivetrain and battery in mind, according to Daimler. Fun fact
If this is true, I would still file it under the same area (inferior to dedicated, better than a modified shared platform without EV usage in mind), as I consider a sandwich platform (which fits EV usage naturally) on the same level as a platform designed with both EV and ICE in mind (like the new Golf platform for example).
And I should clarify the point: the chassis in a shared platform (even designed specifically with EV applications in mind) still has to be sufficiently stiff without a battery at all in the area. While a dedicated platform does not have to consider that. This limits flexibility in using the battery as a weight saving stressed member (I wasn't able to find any reference to the Smart ED's battery serving this function).
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SmartElectric
Active Member
LOFL!! Seriously, we're now talking about saving weight in a car (Smart ED) that weighs 900Kg? You are hard to please...
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I'm talking in general, not targeting any specific car. And just because a car has lower absolute weight (because it is only a small two seater) does not mean weight savings should go out the window as a concern. For example, Smart uses a polycarbonate moonroof instead of traditional glass in order to shave 40-50% off the weight. The savings from a stressed member battery is likely far more than that.
The electric version still pays a 300lb weight penalty over the ICE version. Automakers are continually trying to push that down to as close to zero as possible, and a dedicated platform can help with that.
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JohnSnowNW
Active Member
It's a pretty efficient vehicle when you consider the performance it has.
Performance aside, I would call the design of the interior pretty efficient, and directly related to the design of the skateboard.
Without other cars to compare to, there is not much I can say. For eg. for such a large car, it has inadequate headroom. We don't know if that is the best possible or it could have been better.
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