Chevrolet Spark EV

[clea]

Based on my link above to the Canadian Leaf site, it looks like we only get the SF (starts at $38,395) and SL (starts at $39,995) in Canada.

Having said that, I haven't seen Canadian Chevy Spark pricing yet because I don't think it'll be available in Canada for a while yet.

Based on this wheels.ca article, it should be available here late 2013 ... still no pricing announced however.

 

[fengshui]

But there is a probelm with your data, SAT time:

Nissan Versa:Nissan LEAF :: Chevy Spark:Chevy Spark EV

And the Nissan Versa is the big winner on that sheet.

As for why the Versa is the big winner, my guess is that it gets a boost as the cheapest car on the market.

I agree that the spark is a bit of an odd choice, but given the performance they're trying to give it, the EV version may end up more as a sporty hatch than a subcompact or small car. I doubt they'll sell many Spark EVs, but it may be enough to help out the government emission mandates.

 

[ElSupreme]

The LEAF isn't built on the Versa platform, so I'm not sure the comparison is fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_B_platform#Nissan_EV_platform

It is basically the Versa. It uses the Nissan B platform.

And yes I agree the Versa's numbers are most likely that high because it is the cheapes new car you can get.

 

[mknox]

I doubt they'll sell many Spark EVs, but it may be enough to help out the government emission mandates.

Not that I'm a fan of them, but small cars tend to sell better in Canada. We get the Chevy Orlando here, but it was deemed "too small" for the US market and is not offered there. The Spark EV may very well end up a hit here, especially with things like Ontario's $8,500 incentive and $1,000 incentive for home charging infrastructure.

 

[gregincal]

Based on my link above to the Canadian Leaf site, it looks like we only get the SF (starts at $38,395) and SL (starts at $39,995) in Canada.

Having said that, I haven't seen Canadian Chevy Spark pricing yet because I don't think it'll be available in Canada for a while yet.

That's because they are still showing the 2012 Leaf. It's the 2013 Leaf that's so much cheaper. I think the new cheaper 2013's are expected to be available in Canada in May.

 

[JRP3]

I think I'd take the Spark over the LEAF, if it provides the performance that's promised. The A123 pack should be longer lived as well, and though neither is a great looking car I prefer the Spark

 

[cwerdna]

I think I'd take the Spark over the LEAF, if it provides the performance that's promised. The A123 pack should be longer lived as well, and though neither is a great looking car I prefer the Spark

But they aren't selling it in NY. In the US, sales are limited to CA and OR, so far.

 

[JRP3]

Yes I am aware, just explaining why I, and others, might prefer the Spark over the LEAF.

 

[scottf200]

Pretty good article on the effort they made with the motor (and the plant).

GM's E-Motor Magic - 17 Apr 2013
http://www.evworld.com/focus.cfm?cid=137

The facility is one of GM's jewels in terms of environmental impact. It is a no-land fill facility, meaning it produces no waste that ends up in land-fills. Any waste that is produced is recycled, a process that became obvious as we toured the production floor and saw how the 100kW (130 hp) electric motor is built.
Additionally, the entire roof area of the e-motor section of the plant is covered in photovoltaic panels that can generate 1.2MW of electric power, or about 10% of the plant's electrical needs.
<snip>
Savagian oversees a team of electrical engineers with PhD's who have applied all their knowhow to better understand the dynamics of e-motors and the magnetic fields they generate, so the motor can be optimized in terms of weight, power-output, durability and manufacturability. To the casual observer, the Spark Motor pretty much resembles any other industrial motor, but as Nitz explained to me over lunch, as he nibbled on a potato chip, a comparable, but less rigorously engineered e-motor destined to power a factory conveyor belt would be five times as massive as the 40 kg Spark motor. Five times.
<snip>
Permanent magnet electric motors pretty much consist of three primary materials: copper, steel, and the magnets, the latter made of rare earth elements. The Spark e-motor is no different. It's how they are arranged that would seem to set this motor apart, as well as the processes used to assemble each that are designed to minimize waste.

For example, the copper coils are fabricated using square wire that is cut, trimmed and bent by robots into the "hair pin" shapes required to create the windings. Savagian explained that using square wire is a more efficient use of space. While it takes an experienced technician 15-minutes to manually insert each of the 120+ copper 'hair pins' into their insulating wrappers in the motor, after that robots continue the assembly process, from seating the pins in the stator to welding the free ends into a continuous coil, to dripping the insulating vanish and epoxy onto the newly welded ends. This last step of dripping, instead of dipping, the exposed ends of the coil into their respective coating baths cuts production time and waste.

The magic of the Spark motor, however, starts to become obvious once you see how the rotor is assembled. This is where the tiny, Chiclet-sized rare earth magnets are mounted. There are two sizes of them and they are positioned at various angles to the radius of the rotor. But what's intriguing isn't so much the magnet themselves, but the how they are spaced and the tiny 'eyebrows' and pinholes that are part of the rotor assembly. These aren't there as an after-thought or by-product of a sloppy manufacturing process. They have a very precise purpose, as Peter Savagian illustrated using my luncheon paper napkin.

The Spark motor is a three-phase motor, meaning it has three overlapping sin waves in its power flow, the purpose being to smooth out the operation of the motor as it spins. But within in these sin waves are small peaks and troughs. The purpose of the air gaps in the form of the 'eyebrows' around the slots into which the magnets are epoxied, and the even smaller pin holes closer to the outside of the rotor are to reduce these peaks and valleys, directing the magnetic flux fields in such a way as to further quiet the motor and smooth out its operation.

 

[fengshui]

I think I'd take the Spark over the LEAF, if it provides the performance that's promised. The A123 pack should be longer lived as well, and though neither is a great looking car I prefer the Spark

Same here. My hope for the Spark EV is that it can provide acceleration that gives a bit of a Spark Grin. Something less than the vaunted Tesla smile, but perhaps an echo of that experience. If Spark can provide an enjoyable driving experience at or below the price point of the LEAF, I'll accept the smaller size and almost non-existent quick-charging network for the better driving experience day-to-day.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Same here. My hope for the Spark EV is that it can provide acceleration that gives a bit of a Spark Grin. Something less than the vaunted Tesla smile, but perhaps an echo of that experience. If Spark can provide an enjoyable driving experience at or below the price point of the LEAF, I'll accept the smaller size and almost non-existent quick-charging network for the better driving experience day-to-day.

Since you're in California, it's an absolute guarantee that at least a few thousand will be sold here over 3 years. If it becomes a poor seller like the Rav4 EV compliance car, GM will likely do exactly what Toyota has done and start throwing REAL money at the problem. So, I don't recommend buying one on the first day like I did with the Rav4 (I paid full price).

Now, Toyota is offering $10,000 off, 0% financing, $1000 to the saleperson, $500 to the sales manager, 2% holdback to the dealership.

The dealerships are offering $2000-$4000 off. Plus the $7500 federal credit and $2500 state rebate.

My point is that the price won't likely go up from the launch, but I predict it will go WAY down if they can't easily sell the required numbers for CARB ZEV credits in California. There will be lots of future competition from the 6 compliance car competitors: Fiat/Chrysler, Daimler, Ford, Toyota, VW, and of GM. None of those cars are being built to make money, so it could get even more squirrelly fast!! Plus, you can't discount "real" EV manufacturers like Nissan and Tesla, and maybe BMW.

The only reason they will offer this car outside California at all is to qualify (in their mind) as a "non-compliance" car, which is one of the requirements to get any Frankenplugs installed in California under the NRG deal (100 Frankenplugs in 4 years, right alongside the CHAdeMO chargers).

 

[fengshui]

Since you're in California, it's an absolute guarantee that at least a few thousand will be sold here over 3 years. If it becomes a poor seller like the Rav4 EV compliance car, GM will likely do exactly what Toyota has done and start throwing REAL money at the problem. So, I don't recommend buying one on the first day like I did with the Rav4 (I paid full price).

Now, Toyota is offering $10,000 off, 0% financing, $1000 to the saleperson, $500 to the sales manager, 2% holdback to the dealership.

The dealerships are offering $2000-$4000 off. Plus the $7500 federal credit and $2500 state rebate.

My point is that the price won't likely go up from the launch, but I predict it will go WAY down if they can't easily sell the required numbers for CARB ZEV credits in California. There will be lots of future competition from the 6 compliance car competitors: Fiat/Chrysler, Daimler, Ford, Toyota, VW, and of GM. None of those cars are being built to make money, so it could get even more squirrelly fast!! Plus, you can't discount "real" EV manufacturers like Nissan and Tesla, and maybe BMW.

The only reason they will offer this car outside California at all is to qualify (in their mind) as a "non-compliance" car, which is one of the requirements to get any Frankenplugs installed in California under the NRG deal (100 Frankenplugs in 4 years, right alongside the CHAdeMO chargers).

So how long after introducing the Rav4EV did it take Toyota to see the writing on the wall and start the serious discounting? How long would you wait if you were going to do it again?

 

[GSP]

I think it was only a few months before Toyota started discounting the RAV4-EV.

GSP

 

[cwerdna]

BTW, if it hasn't already been mentioned, the $10K incentive WITH 0% financing Tony's talking about can be seen at Toyota Dealerships - New & Used Car Deals & Special Offers | BuyAToyota.com
if you put in a So Cal zip code like 90024.

From what I hear, Nor Cal inventory of '12 Rav4 EVs is getting thin. '13s have started showing up but no incentives yet (at least not at the above URL). I suspect Toyota will have to do something similar unless they want their Rav4 EV sales to plummet.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So how long after introducing the Rav4EV did it take Toyota to see the writing on the wall and start the serious discounting? How long would you wait if you were going to do it again?

Within a few months, and they just kept getting bigger and bigger discounts. For a SparkEV, I might wait 6 months, but keep in mind that GM needs to sell about the same number as Toyota with the Rav4. So, the sales data below should come in handy to judge when the serious cash comes in:

Assuming 36 months is required for 2600 units for CARB, 72 per month need to be sold.

On sale: September 24, 2012

Date ---- Month ----- Totals
Sep 2012 - 61 ........... 61 (mostly to the actual dealerships as demos)
Oct 2012 - 47 ........... 108
Nov 2012 - 32 ........... 140
Dec 2012 - 52 ........... 192
Jan 2013 - 25 ............ 217
Feb 2013 - 52 ............ 269
Mar 2013 - 133 .......... 402 (first month with $10k discount)

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I don't recall when Toyota start slapping on smaller incentives, but from looking at one of my old posts, I posted about a $5K incentive on 12/25/12.

 

[JRP3]

I think the Spark may sell much better than the RAV considering it's price point. Part of the RAV problem IMO is it's not AWD, which is a harder sell for an SUV. The Spark is an econobox for around town use, the EV version won't really change it's mission, and the EV version should be much more sporty than the ICE version.

 

[jerry33]

I think the Spark may sell much better than the RAV considering it's price point. Part of the RAV problem IMO is it's not AWD, which is a harder sell for an SUV. The Spark is an econobox for around town use, the EV version won't really change it's mission, and the EV version should be much more sporty than the ICE version.

The big problem with the RAV is that it's a compliance car and everyone knows it. Few want to purchase a car that they know will be discontinued as soon as Toyota can legally do it.

 

[JRP3]

One might argue it's less risky than buying from a start up company like Tesla :wink:

 

[jerry33]

One might argue it's less risky than buying from a start up company like Tesla :wink:

True, but not if you have had any experience with Toyota service.