Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[techmaven]

See my post above. A GM dealer that is servicing Bolts that needs to be able to charge several a day fully within a reasonable time frame, and needs a DC charging station on the premises to qualify to sell/service Bolts.

So... an idiotic dealership requirement justifies this lunacy?

The best way to charge more EVs is to have more plugs. That's multiple L2's overnight. No reason for a low power expensive DC charger at a dealership. If they need a DC charger, install the fastest one... drop the $40-60k it costs per plug. Install 2-4 plugs. Can't afford the $200k? Simple, don't install DC charging. Makes much more sense to install 10-20 J1772 plugs for the $15k.

 

[pjoseph]

EOY is hurling towards us. Has anybody seen the car yet?

Where is the market for this car? i don't see any good reason for the Tesla faithful to switch allegiance.

Yes, it is priced attractively (i paid exactly that much for a Leaf 5 yrs ago).

 

[bro1999]

So... an idiotic dealership requirement justifies this lunacy?

The best way to charge more EVs is to have more plugs. That's multiple L2's overnight. No reason for a low power expensive DC charger at a dealership. If they need a DC charger, install the fastest one... drop the $40-60k it costs per plug. Install 2-4 plugs. Can't afford the $200k? Simple, don't install DC charging. Makes much more sense to install 10-20 J1772 plugs for the $15k.

IMO, if a dealer wants to service Bolts, they should have the ability charge the Bolts fully in a reasonable time frame, which means some kind of DC fast charging station.

"Mr. Smith, your Bolt's service is all done! All it needed was a tire rotation because these damn things barely having any moving parts! Uh....unfortunately, because you live a hundred miles away and arrived with a low state of charge, you'll probably need to wait at least another.....8-10 hours to be able to actually make it home, because all we have is 3.3 kW charging stations."

That would go over well.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The line all this time has been the base Model 3 will be cheaper than a base Bolt....but it turns out it should be fairly easy (all someone needs to do is sign up for Costco to gain access to supplier/invoice pricing) to obtain invoice pricing. The actual transaction price of a base Bolt EV should be less than the stated price of a base Model 3 + delivery charge.

So arriving at least 1 year earlier, with likely more range, and now may even be cheaper than the barebones 3! Tesla still has the "cool" card to cling to, I guess.

Pfft. That's stretching things a lot (not that having a slightly higher price would drop Model 3 sales to anywhere near the projected Bolt levels). Reminds me of people saying you can get an ELR for cheaper than a Model S, but ultimately that was only true because that car was a complete sales failure. If the Bolt doesn't flop, it'll be selling for slightly below MSRP, maybe even above MSRP for the early orders.

 

[jgs]

Cheap way for a Chevy dealership to meet the requirement of having a DC fast charging station installed on dealership grounds to be eligible to sell/service Bolts though.

You know, calling 24kW "DCFC" reminds me of the debate over what constituted "broadband" not that long ago, with various providers arguing with straight faces that 1 Mbps DSL was "broadband". Will the government end up defining what constitutes DCFC as opposed to just DC (not so fast) charging? ("No of course not, industry will self-regulate!" or maybe "No of course not the market will fix that!")

 

[techmaven]

IMO, if a dealer wants to service Bolts, they should have the ability charge the Bolts fully in a reasonable time frame, which means some kind of DC fast charging station.

"Mr. Smith, your Bolt's service is all done! All it needed was a tire rotation because these damn things barely having any moving parts! Uh....unfortunately, because you live a hundred miles away and arrived with a low state of charge, you'll probably need to wait at least another.....8-10 hours to be able to actually make it home, because all we have is 3.3 kW charging stations."

Think of how this actually plays out. They cannot charge while the car is being serviced. They have a single DC plug for $15k. That can charge at a rate of 24kW. For $15k, one can charge at least 10x cars, or 72 kW. Which makes more sense? It only makes sense if you don't believe in BEVs and want to minimize costs, since you won't sell very many.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't how new this is, but GM is selling business level 24kW CCS stations for a "reasonable" price:

GMDE Solutions

$10k, but there probably is a tax credit, I'll have to ask our CPA. It does require 3ph 480 though.

Sure beats the commercial 50kW unit:

GMDE Solutions

All the 24kW unit will permit is a second delivery run in a day, which would be rare.

BMW's 24kW unit is still significantly cheaper at ~$6.5k:
BMW Launches New Low Cost DC Fast Chargers From $6,458

 

[electracity]

EOY is hurling towards us. Has anybody seen the car yet?

Where is the market for this car? i don't see any good reason for the Tesla faithful to switch allegiance.

Yes, it is priced attractively (i paid exactly that much for a Leaf 5 yrs ago).

It is looking like a few SoCal customers will have Bolts by the end of the year. That will likely be at least a year ahead of the M3.

 

[bro1999]

Think of how this actually plays out. They cannot charge while the car is being serviced. They have a single DC plug for $15k. That can charge at a rate of 24kW. For $15k, one can charge at least 10x cars, or 72 kW. Which makes more sense? It only makes sense if you don't believe in BEVs and want to minimize costs, since you won't sell very many.

Yeah, so a dealership that truly wants to sell Bolts (and Volts) and other future EVs should have a compliment of L2 charging stations in addition to the mando DC fast charging station(s). Making a DC station a prerequisite for selling/servicing Bolts makes perfect sense, to mitigate the Mr. Smith scenario I outlined above. Dealerships should really have at least a 50 kW DC station, but the 24 kW option eases the financial burden of smaller dealerships that finally have decided to get EV certified.

 

[McRat]

BMW's 24kW unit is still significantly cheaper at ~$6.5k:
BMW Launches New Low Cost DC Fast Chargers From $6,458

Footnote 2: First get a BMW dealership, price is subsidized.

 

[MP3Mike]

So... an idiotic dealership requirement justifies this lunacy?

The best way to charge more EVs is to have more plugs. That's multiple L2's overnight. No reason for a low power expensive DC charger at a dealership. If they need a DC charger, install the fastest one... drop the $40-60k it costs per plug. Install 2-4 plugs. Can't afford the $200k? Simple, don't install DC charging. Makes much more sense to install 10-20 J1772 plugs for the $15k.

If they are going to service Bolts they have to have at least one CCS charger. How else are they going to test it if a customer says it isn't working properly? Do you expect them to tell the customer to drive to a dealer 100s of miles away that has a CCS charger to test with? (Remember their CCS charging for long distance travel isn't working.)

They should have at least one L2 charger to test with as well.

 

[Az_Rael]

The "arriving at least 1 year earlier" bit I assume? and that's provided you live in a ZEV state and have a dealer who sells EV models ... otherwise only 6 months, maybe less (particularly if Bolt sales are successful, ironically!).

Well, you also have to consider that the Model 3 is going to be sold in CA first as well, then slowly ramped up across the country. So if you live on the East coast in a CARB state, you might actually be able to get a Bolt MORE than a year in advance of a Model 3.

And if anyone thinks Tesla will be delivering the Model 3 nationwide in 2017, I have a bridge to sell you...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Footnote 2: First get a BMW dealership, price is subsidized.

Isn't your link also to a dealer network catalog?
Looking at the model number, both the GM and BMW ones are actually the exact same unit: the EL-51620.
https://www.chargepoint.com/files/BMW_i_DC_fast_charger_datasheet.pdf

 

[McRat]

Techmaven is simply saying a Bolt should weigh 4600lb and cost $67,200 stripped.

If a spec on a Bolt is not equal to a Model S, it was not engineered correctly apparently. So what if they are different cars for different purposes and different buyers? Everybody should be richer in the world. Blame the world's workers, not the costs of goods.

And he apparently is completely unaware of what an 80a instant load on a typical middle class home will do.

But it is puzzling. If Tesla charges easy at 120kW, why didn't they put a 3ph 480 option on it? Very, very short sighted since Superchargers already need 480, they could have just put the 480 in the car. You could plug a cheap charger in at work and go 120kW or higher.

 

[McRat]

Isn't your link also to a dealer network catalog?
Looking at the model number, both the GM and BMW ones are actually the exact same unit: the EL-51620.
https://www.chargepoint.com/files/BMW_i_DC_fast_charger_datasheet.pdf

No, you can personally buy that. I buy GM tools all the time. Technically it's required by law, it's just that Tesla did not get the memo. You cannot by law restrict access to special tools and repair manuals.

Yes, they are both made by Bosch as is my home L2 EVSE from 2013.

 

[techmaven]

Techmaven is simply saying a Bolt should weigh 4600lb and cost $67,200 stripped.

If a spec on a Bolt is not equal to a Model S, it was not engineered correctly apparently. So what if they are different cars for different purposes and different buyers? Everybody should be richer in the world. Blame the world's workers, not the costs of goods.

And he apparently is completely unaware of what an 80a instant load on a typical middle class home will do.

But it is puzzling. If Tesla charges easy at 120kW, why didn't they put a 3ph 480 option on it? Very, very short sighted since Superchargers already need 480, they could have just put the 480 in the car. You could plug a cheap charger in at work and go 120kW or higher.

Nope. What is the weight of having a 40A L2 charger on-board instead of a 30A L2? What is the cost in volume? It's short sighted to skimp in this way. It demonstrates poor product planning.

There are plenty of people that have 80A Tesla HPWC's in middle class homes. The EVSE doesn't drop the 80A load on the circuit instantly. You clearly have never witnessed a Tesla charge at 80A.

Not sure what you are saying about Supercharging. It doesn't make sense for almost anyone to have DC charging, Tesla or no Tesla. The costs are way too high. DC charging is for supporting long distance travel. All other charging should be AC charging.

 

[bro1999]

Nope. What is the weight of having a 40A L2 charger on-board instead of a 30A L2? What is the cost in volume? It's short sighted to skimp in this way. It demonstrates poor product planning.

There are plenty of people that have 80A Tesla HPWC's in middle class homes. The EVSE doesn't drop the 80A load on the circuit instantly. You clearly have never witnessed a Tesla charge at 80A.

Not sure what you are saying about Supercharging. It doesn't make sense for almost anyone to have DC charging, Tesla or no Tesla. The costs are way too high. DC charging is for supporting long distance travel. All other charging should be AC charging.

Fact is that site is a GM dealer equipment ordering site, so the 24 kW CCS DC station makes sense for a dealer needing to install a DC fast charging station in order to meet the requirement to sell/service Bolts while not breaking the bank. It is 1/4 the cost of the 50 kW, dual headed Chargepoint station also on the site.

 

[McRat]

Nope. What is the weight of having a 40A L2 charger on-board instead of a 30A L2? What is the cost in volume? It's short sighted to skimp in this way. It demonstrates poor product planning.

There are plenty of people that have 80A Tesla HPWC's in middle class homes. The EVSE doesn't drop the 80A load on the circuit instantly. You clearly have never witnessed a Tesla charge at 80A.

Not sure what you are saying about Supercharging. It doesn't make sense for almost anyone to have DC charging, Tesla or no Tesla. The costs are way too high. DC charging is for supporting long distance travel. All other charging should be AC charging.

Middle class people do not buy $100k cars, trust me.

No, the Tesla should have on-board 480v 3ph. So you just need a EVSE to charge it at 120kW.

 

[stopcrazypp]

No, you can personally buy that. I buy GM tools all the time. Technically it's required by law, it's just that Tesla did not get the memo. You cannot by law restrict access to special tools and repair manuals.

Yes, they are both made by Bosch as is my home L2 EVSE from 2013.

If you make the same argument, couldn't you do the same at a BMW dealer?
I googled it and it looks like someone was selling the BMW ones for around $4400.
BMW i3 DC 24kW Electric Car Quick Charger Station CHBRN012086 BOSCH EL-51620-BMW

Side point: AFAIK the right to repair laws only apply in MA, not in other states, and only covers tools and manuals necessary for repair, which a charging station may not necessarily fall into.

 

[McRat]

If you make the same argument, couldn't you do the same at a BMW dealer?
I googled it and it looks like someone was selling the BMW ones for around $4400.
BMW i3 DC 24kW Electric Car Quick Charger Station CHBRN012086 BOSCH EL-51620-BMW

Side point: AFAIK the right to repair laws only apply in MA, not in other states, and only covers tools and manuals necessary for repair, which a charging station may not necessarily fall into.

Dunno. It applies here too in CA.

Damn, I wish I would have seen that in April. Although... It's probably hot. I can't see BMW surplusing chargers yet.