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Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

bro1999

Active Member
Apr 26, 2016
2,046
1,987
Maryland
I read both the cleantechnica article AND the gm-volt forum posting. I think you should REALLY RECONSIDER labeling the article as spin AND re-assess which of your sources are biased and which are balanced.

To be honest, Cleantechnica is less biased that fanboi-run Electrek. I'll admit that. But that's sorta like saying Japan was slightly less evil than Germany during WWII.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,264
5,171
interesting review on cleantechnica: Chevy Bolt EV Review, From One Of The First Buyers To Get One

The owner's impressions of the bolt were decent, but his impressions of GM and the dealership were damning. Goes to what I told McRat, GM was the worst thing to have happened to the Bolt.
"Not that I think the i3 is worth the cost, but the Bolt EV (even in Premier trim) shouldn’t be the same price.'
This line stood out to me. This goes to my continual suggestion that the Bolt as GM designed it, is not seen as a premium car for which the price is justified (not even by this early buyer), which will be a problem in terms of sales.
 
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McRat

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Jan 20, 2016
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"Not that I think the i3 is worth the cost, but the Bolt EV (even in Premier trim) shouldn’t be the same price.'
This line stood out to me. This goes to my continual suggestion that the Bolt as GM designed it, is not seen as a premium car for which the price is justified (not even by this early buyer), which will be a problem in terms of sales.

While the BMW i3 33kWh has a superior claimed power-to-weight, it has lower performance than the Bolt. It has 33kWh of battery, yet less than 1/2 the range of the Bolt. And of course it's a lot smaller.

The BMW i3 / 33kWh stripped (zero option) is $44,595 vs the Bolt at $37,495.

If luxury is cupholders and badging, the BMW will always win at any price. If luxury is the driving experience? Shop around more.
 

TonyWilliams

Active Member
Jun 11, 2012
1,438
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San Diego - Tesla powered Rav4 EV
But those (94ah) cells are a different physical size than the ones in the Bolt EV.

Are we sure of that? How did BMW put the 94ah cells in the i3, where 60ah cells have been previously? I'm not suggesting GM is going to do this anytime soon, because their primary motivation is to make a relatively low-cost GM Zero Emission Vehicle with superior range to its competitors.

GM famously stated that they were paying $145 per kilowatt hour now and $100 per kilowatt hour in 2020. It really PO'd LG when the data was released.


Why would GM set the vehicle limit (125a charging) based on historical charging station limits? That would seem odd to me unless it is tied to certifications on parts such as a 200A limit on the CCS inlet. The usual limiting factor is the battery and it ought to be able to handle more than 125A.

GM actually told us that was going to be the limit, and that they would assess a higher limit in the future. Of course the battery can take more than 125 amps.


Since GM folks recently mentioned 80 kW while speaking a couple of times and the owner manual mentions 80 kW I think that implies 160A or more.

160 A does not charge any 400 V battery at 80 kW. Neither does 200 A.

The data that they are inaccurately providing is the maximum charge amps multiplied by the maximum battery voltage:

200a * 400v = 80kW

But no lithium 400 V battery can accept the highest charge rate at the highest voltage!

So, the maximum charge rate will likely be somewhere between 70 and 75kW:

200a * 350v = 70kW
200a * 375v = 75kW


But then, almost nobody needs to fully charge a Bolt EV or a Tesla on DC -- you should rarely need to charge much longer than 60-70 minutes and charging longer than that is a waste of time due to the ramp down.


You are making huge assumptions that just don't apply in every case. At 125 A, the GM Chevrolet Bolt EV will add 3 miles per minute while charging. If I need to go 210 miles to the next DC fast charger or to grandma's house, then I need to charge 70 minutes or more (depending on battery temperature, ambient temp, charger output, load sharing etc.)

If that distant location is 250 or 300 miles away (which is very easy to be in the United States of America), I'm going to "fill it up" for two hours or so.

Obviously, if you're in a charger rich environment like major metro areas in California, or in the Northeast, or the Pacific Northwest, sure, just charge enough to get you on your way. If you only need 30 miles of additional range, charge for 10 minutes.
 

McRat

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2016
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Ironically, the automotive media are generally not good people to whom to listen, because most people don't really care about the stuff that they care about.

I think you meant "most 'green' or 'appliance' car people".

If you believe the #1 feature of a car is the driving, then gearhead mags are better.

There is nothing wrong with being an appliance driver. Most people are. It's why the Camry remains on top.
 

bro1999

Active Member
Apr 26, 2016
2,046
1,987
Maryland
Hey, speaking of negatively slanted GM articles! GM delivered 579 Chevy Bolt EVs in 2016

Negative slanting is one thing, but the above article has 100% wrong info in it. Bolt production did NOT start in mid-December as stated in the article. It started in October, like it was being reported all along: Tweet Says 2017 Chevy Bolt EV Production Has Started For Otherwise Secretive Rollout - HybridCars.com

Why should Electrek care about accuracy though. As long as it slams GM in one way or another.

Also, the Volt had its best sales month ever by far, and they just gloss over it like some Tesla owners gloss over imperfections at delivery. Whatever, Electrek is anti-GM, so hardly surprising they don't get excited over the Volt's best sales month ever.
 
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scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
8,375
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Quite frankly, I'll re-state something I said about the Bolt here at the outset:

I'm glad to see another major manufacturer offer a long-range EV at a competitive price.

I understand some of the criticisms (concern about DCFC infrastructure, size, styling, lack of confidence in GM, etc...)... but many of them are just as subjective as they are objective.

I sincerely hope GM is serious about EV's long term, and manages to not trip over it's own feet rolling them out, and they sell a boatload of them. It would be great to have them so pleasantly surprised that they take a close look at their plans and revise them for the better going forward.

I kinda bet that's what Elon would want as well.
 
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McRat

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2016
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Maybe because it has an ICE?

No, because it's a GM. If Electrek was concerned about ICE, they would have really trashed the new Toyota Prius Prime.

Here's what they said about the 10.6 second 0-60 Prius Prime, which needs gasoline to get advertised performance. It cannot run on EV power at full advertised HP, and it's EV-only range is 22 miles on the first EPA submission:

"While the Toyota Prius has had its fair amount of success, the dazzling Prius Prime will aim to be the customer’s top choice for a plug-in hybrid with its attractive $27,100 price tag (before incentives) and very impressive 124 MPGe.

While some of us might wish it was a full-blown electric vehicle, Toyota’s upcoming Prius Prime is sure to draw attention and give drivers their first exposure to what driving a car with an electric drivetrain is like. Further, the Prius Prime will operate very similar to the Chevy Volt, and with all of the positive feedback out there about the Volt, we can anticipate around the same, if not more, interest for the Prime. Especially given Toyota’s long track record of producing long-term, reliable vehicles."

How is a car that is slower than it's ICE counterpart going to "give drivers their first exposure to what driving a car with an electric drivetrain"?

Are EV's lethargic? All Priuses are.
 

McRat

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2016
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I was looking at Eastwood Towne Center | Lansing, MI | Electric Car Charging Station | PlugShare where one of the checkins says

"Kata Nov 8, 2016 3:34 PM
First time charging my Chevrolet Bolt EV here."

I thought no Bolts had been delivered in November? Possibly a typo for "Volt" (it's the neighboring key after all) but "EV"?

Production started in October. It's most likely a Captured Test Fleet car. Few people outside GM call it a Bolt EV, which is the correct model name. Sort of like Ampera and Ampera-e.
 
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McRat

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2016
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Yeah that really sounds like anti GM rhetoric :rolleyes:

I read it this way:

"Further, the Prius Prime will operate very similar to the Chevy Volt, and with all of the positive feedback out there about the Volt, we can anticipate around the same, if not more, interest for the Prime."

No. A Prius Prime does not operate in a similar fashion to a Volt. One has a big EV motor and the other a small one. One has full power only during EV operation, the other full power only under gasoline operation. One has 53 miles of honest EV range, the other has 22 miles as long as drive like grandma, otherwise the gas engine comes on.

Let's reword it:

"Further, the Mitsubishi i-MiEV will operate very similar to the Tesla Model S, and with all the positive feedback out there about the Model S, we can anticipate around the same, if not more, interest in the i-MiEV".

I see both sentences as a joke. The i-MiEV screams econobox when you push the pedal as do all Priuses up to and including the Prime.
 
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Jeff N

Active Member
Oct 31, 2011
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How is a car that is slower than it's ICE counterpart going to "give drivers their first exposure to what driving a car with an electric drivetrain"?
The main electric motor in the Prius Prime has a different gear ratio to the wheels than the gas engine. It is something like 10.5:1 from memory so its torque gets multiplied more. The smaller motor can also used in parallel now with a good but less torque multiplying ratio. This can launch the car at slower speeds better than one might think just from looking at gas engine vs electric motor specs.

I think Toyota has done a good job balancing things given the assumption of a 8.8 kWh pack.
 
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3Victoria

Active Member
May 8, 2016
1,763
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Victoria, British Columbia
The average Cleantechnica reader's take will be "GM sucks, Tesla rules"....like that owner's friend that said exactly that after he read the article.

To be honest, Cleantechnica is less biased that fanboi-run Electrek. I'll admit that. But that's sorta like saying Japan was slightly less evil than Germany during WWII.
Boy, for someone that bashes Tesla repeatedly, you sure are sensitive about perceived bashing about GM/Bolt. This is, as many have reminded you, a Tesla forum. Whether a reader comes away with "GM sucks, Tesla rules" is up to that reader, I don;t think that article is particularly slanted -- I think you are too sensitive to criticisms of the Bolt.

There is lots of space for Teslas and Bolts, Volts and all the other cars. For some the Bolt is a perfect fit. I leave that decision up to each person. Can't believe this discussion has gone on for 217 pages!
 

Saghost

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2013
8,217
7,010
Delaware
No. A Prius Prime does not operate in a similar fashion to a Volt. One has a big EV motor and the other a small one. One has full power only during EV operation, the other full power only under gasoline operation. One has 53 miles of honest EV range, the other has 22 miles as long as drive like grandma, otherwise the gas engine comes on.

It's not central to your point and is a little off topic, but as far as I know the motors in the Prime are plenty powerful enough - the problem is they still didn't give it a big enough battery pack, and energy biased chemistries just can't deliver large C rates safely, so the car's EV output is limited by the battery pack. All Priuses have substantial electric motors, which they perhaps ironically are only able to use to their full potential when the ICE is on and running hard.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,547
7,700
Maine
The average Cleantechnica reader's take will be "GM sucks, Tesla rules"....like that owner's friend that said exactly that after he read the article.

Here's the paragraph that precedes the Ladogaboy's positive comments about the car itself, with my added emphasis :

Cleantechnica said:
One of these owners, posting under the name “Ladogaboy” on the GM Volt forum, was generous enough to post a review of the Bolt EV there. Here are some particularly interesting parts (though the whole thing is worth a read if you have the time):

Here's that critical paragraph again with my added emphasis:

Cleantechnica said:
Not too surprising. This has always seemed to me to be one of the areas where Tesla has a huge advantage over the other auto manufacturers — it can simply forgo the use of third-party dealerships and shipping and take care of these parts of the business itself.

Positives on the car, negatives of the rest of the system.
If it wanted to it could have criticized GM specifically on the distribution and dealerships, but in that negative paragraph it treats those issues as a result of third parties, and does _not_ blame GM. In fact it does not even _name_ GM and sees it as a general problem for the other manufacturers that are trapped in the franchise system.

If you or Ladogaboy or Ladogaboy's friend are reading "GM sucks" from that article, then I think you are letting bias or defensiveness get in the way of comprehension.
 

bro1999

Active Member
Apr 26, 2016
2,046
1,987
Maryland
The Woz has spoken. Basically says the Bolt is better than a Tesla in every way for him except the lack of supercharging. :cool:

Adding in the "Who gives a **** what this guy thinks?!" criticisms ahead of time so the zealots don't have to. You're welcome.
Screenshot_20170106-0553113_zps5yvqubsu.png
Screenshot_20170106-0553113_zps5yvqubsu.png
 
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