Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[mtndrew1]

So far, with the Bolt it has been under promise and under deliver. Sales in 2018 have been dismal -- only about 1600/month in the U.S. according to insideEVs. Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

That's just terrible for a car at this price point.

Agreed. The Model 3 with only one very expensive configuration, no leasing, no promotional interest rates and no factory rebates is outselling the Bolt 3:1. By June it’s plausible that it’ll be 5:1.

For the ‘19 model year the Bolt desperately needs standard DCFC, new seats, upgraded interior materials, ACC, and a $2500 price chop.

 

[McRat]

So far, with the Bolt it has been under promise and under deliver. Sales in 2018 have been dismal -- only about 1600/month in the U.S. according to insideEVs. Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

That's just terrible for a car at this price point.

More than 200 miles, under 7 seconds to 60 mph, under $30k after Fed rebate. Exactly what do you see as a lie? Current market price in California starts at $26,050 after all taxes, dest, and incentives 5/4/2018.

It has 3 BEV competitors (over 200mi, under 7s) which start out at $50,000 (Model 3) MSRP before taxes and rebates. $43,550 after taxes and all incentives.

Look at all EVs, not just the Bolt. The Bolt was the third best selling EV in the US in April.

#1 Model 3
#2 Prime (while sales fell in April, when polled 'name an EV', the Prius is the #1 answer, and it's being sold as an EV)
#3 Bolt EV

 

[McRat]

I'm not one of those who is surprised that the Model 3 is selling well. There are at least 70,000 more US reservations ahead of me, and Model 3 sales have hit about 16,000 units since July 2017.

 

[bro1999]

Wow, they have to replace the motors to update the software, they can't just update them? What is this the 1980s?

Hey, at least you know these "dumb" wipers won't become sentient, go SKYNET and try to kill you someday.

 

[McRat]

Wow, they have to replace the motors to update the software, they can't just update them? What is this the 1980s?

Not really. In 1980 if your car was sold with automatic wipers, they actually had that feature when sold.

 

[mtndrew1]

Not really. In 1980 if your car was sold with automatic wipers, they actually had that feature when sold.

I was unaware that rain sensing wipers were available on GM cars in the 1980s. Innovative.

In a more practical comparison my Chevrolet Volt was sold to me advertising an iPod interface that never worked properly for three years and no means to update it, over the air or otherwise.

 

[McRat]

I was unaware that rain sensing wipers were available on GM cars in the 1980s. Innovative.

In a more practical comparison my Chevrolet Volt was sold to me advertising an iPod interface that never worked properly for three years and no means to update it, over the air or otherwise.

There were brands that had them back then. They were electric, not digital. Cadillac reintroduced autowipers in 1996, but in the late 1950's the Cad convertibles had an automatic sensor to close the top in the rain.

Apple's fault or GM's fault? My iPhone / iPad / MacBook Pro could never reliably communicate directly with each other. All 3 would talk to Linux or Windows devices though. I still have lots of issues with the iPhone 6 they have never fixed that have nothing to do with cars. Dead end screens that require a reboot is one. Overheating. Erratic battery life. Poor cellular range. Etc.

BTW - Our iPhones struggle with aftermarket stereos too. Hit or miss.

 

[mtndrew1]

Who cares? The functionality was advertised and never worked properly. There was no way to update anything on the car’s side. Each time the phone was plugged in the tracks on the car would duplicate, eventually getting to the point where I had ten or twenty versions of each song. The GM TSB was “wipe the phone and reload every time this happens” or some such. This persisted through multiple iOS versions and updates.

But the point is that the bestest most amazingist car company in the whole gosh-darn world advertised and sold me a feature via software that worked properly in other cars (even other GM cars) and the Volt never did. And it couldn’t be updated.

Once GM shipped the broken software I was stuck with it forever. I’ll take the Tesla model, thanks.

 

[McRat]

Who cares? The functionality was advertised and never worked properly. There was no way to update anything on the car’s side. Each time the phone was plugged in the tracks on the car would duplicate, eventually getting to the point where I had ten or twenty versions of each song. The GM TSB was “wipe the phone and reload every time this happens” or some such. This persisted through multiple iOS versions and updates.

But the point is that the bestest most amazingist car company in the whole gosh-darn world advertised and sold me a feature via software that worked properly in other cars (even other GM cars) and the Volt never did. And it couldn’t be updated.

Once GM shipped the broken software I was stuck with it forever. I’ll take the Tesla model, thanks.

How can Jensen fix an iPod error?

Do you think Apple cares even a little bit about interoperability? That does not make them any money. That's why it's rare to find USB-USB on Apple products as a data exchange system and why their BT sucks. This goes back to the Apple II days: "Compatibility will kill us!!" Hence why Apple was the only one with a non-standard sectoring system on floppies.

It's not just GM that has problems with Apple products. Everybody does to one extent or another from power cables to supercomputers.

 

[EinSV]

It has 3 BEV competitors (over 200mi, under 7s) which start out at $50,000 (Model 3) MSRP before taxes and rebates. $43,550 after taxes and all incentives.

Look at all EVs, not just the Bolt. The Bolt was the third best selling EV in the US in April.

#1 Model 3
#2 Prime (while sales fell in April, when polled 'name an EV', the Prius is the #1 answer, and it's being sold as an EV)
#3 Bolt EV

There is no reason to limit the competition to BEVs. Model S outsells all large premium sedans in the U.S. by a large margin and Model 3 will do the same by May or June for premium sedans overall. There is no longer any excuse for EVs not to be competitive with ICE vehicles, at least at the Bolt's price point.

But the Bolt's overall package is not competitive, as reflected by its poor sales in the U.S. relative to similarly priced vehicles. And in places where it might do better -- like Europe -- GM has no interest in selling it at all because it hasn't made the investments needed to sell it at a profit.

 

[McRat]

There is no reason to limit the competition to BEVs. Model S outsells all large premium sedans in the U.S. by a large margin and Model 3 will do the same by May or June for premium sedans overall. There is no longer any excuse for EVs not to be competitive with ICE vehicles, at least at the Bolt's price point.

But the Bolt's overall package is not competitive, as reflected by its poor sales in the U.S. relative to similarly priced vehicles. And in places where it might do better -- like Europe -- GM has no interest in selling it at all because it hasn't made the investments needed to sell it at a profit.

The Bolt is up 30% YTD over 2017. It outsold the Corvette. Out of 144 passenger sedans and coupes, it was #60.

There is a reason to limit the competition to BEVs. Model S sold 6,550 YTD, X 5,525, Model 3 is 12,055. 24.2k US YTD total. The Impala is being axed due to poor sales and it sells more than the entire Tesla Brand. If Tesla's Brand was a single non-SUV passenger car, it would rank #22.

Now look:
April 2018 YTD U.S. Passenger Car Sales Rankings - Top 144 Best-Selling Cars In America - Every Car Ranked -
(Some cars are not reported in for April)
This does not include light trucks, CUV, SUVs.

 

[EinSV]

The Bolt is up 30% YTD over 2017. It outsold the Corvette. Out of 144 passenger sedans and coupes, it was #60.

There is a reason to limit the competition to BEVs. Model S sold 6,550 YTD, X 5,525, Model 3 is 12,055. 24.2k US YTD total. The Impala is being axed due to poor sales and it sells more than the entire Tesla Brand. If Tesla's Brand was a single non-SUV passenger car, it would rank #22.

Now look:
April 2018 YTD U.S. Passenger Car Sales Rankings - Top 144 Best-Selling Cars In America - Every Car Ranked -
(Some cars are not reported in for April)
This does not include light trucks, CUV, SUVs.

Well that's a hot mess of "comparisons." It is meaningless to compare sales figures of much higher priced vehicles like the Corvette, Model S and X to the Bolt and Model 3. And comparing Bolt sales this year to sales last year at the same time when production and sales were still supposedly ramping up is also meaningless.

The fact remains that compared to similarly priced vehicles, Bolt sales of only ~1600/month in the U.S. are very weak. A successful model at that price point would be selling in the hundreds of thousands per year, not low tens of thousands. The slow sales shouldn't come as a surprise given the Bolt's shortcomings, but even though I have been pessimistic about the Bolt's prospects from the beginning it is doing even worse than I expected so far this year.

To be successful with EVs, GM needs to invest in the battery and EV drivetrain manufacturing infrastructure necessary to produce compelling EVs at high volume. Instead, GM has farmed out much of that to LG Chem and is left with a compromised vehicle that is not selling well.

 

[mtndrew1]

The Bolt is up 30% YTD over 2017. It outsold the Corvette. Out of 144 passenger sedans and coupes, it was #60.

There is a reason to limit the competition to BEVs. Model S sold 6,550 YTD, X 5,525, Model 3 is 12,055. 24.2k US YTD total. The Impala is being axed due to poor sales and it sells more than the entire Tesla Brand. If Tesla's Brand was a single non-SUV passenger car, it would rank #22.

Now look:
April 2018 YTD U.S. Passenger Car Sales Rankings - Top 144 Best-Selling Cars In America - Every Car Ranked -
(Some cars are not reported in for April)
This does not include light trucks, CUV, SUVs.

If we’re doing the “year to date” thing, the Bolt was only available in a handful of states at this point in 2017.

Year over year, April to April, Bolt sales are down even though it’s now available in all 50 states (if insideEVs numbers are even reasonably accurate). The estimate is 1275 Bolts for April of 2018 with all 50 states as opposed to 1292 for April of 2017.

Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

 

[wdolson]

It was the 2nd best selling BEV (or was it plugin) in 2017. I wouldn't count out the Bolt just yet. The year is still young. Unless Tesla goes bankrupt, the Model 3 should easily take the sales crown this year, but the Bolt will likely finish top 5. Currently GM is cranking out much of the 5k South Korean Bolts that sold out in less than a day. The Orion factory will be plenty busy in the future, be in with Bolt production or Bolt-spinoffs. The Bolt is just the tip of the EV iceberg for GM.

If Bolt sales are "terrible", what do you call sales of the '18 Leaf which is $7,500 cheaper than the Bolt? The Bolt outsold the Leaf last month, despite the "terrible" sales.

Finishing in the top 5 sellers for BEVs in the US isn't that big a deal. There are only 14 BEVs available in the US right now and most of the pack are only available in a limited number of states. The list of cars available nationwide is short: 3X models from Tesla, the Bold, the Leaf, the BMW i3, and the Hyundai IONIQ (sometime soon, not right now).

The Bolt has a couple of strikes against it. Many EV followers hate GM for what they did with the EV 1 and they have sworn to never go back. There are also generic GM haters like my SO who is convinced up one side and down the other that GM cars are junk even though my Buick was still running fine when I sold it after 24 years. It outlasted her first gen Subaru Outback which blew the engine at 23 years and came very close to being toast at around 14 years when the head gasket blew spectacularly on the freeway at night.

Many have also criticized the Bolt for a cheap looking interior and poor quality seats. In a world with Teslas available, GM offerings aren't that interesting to me, but if I was looking for an EV that was non-Tesla, the seats in the Bolt would be a deal killer for me. With my long legs, I need the positions only available with power seats on a long trip and th seats in the Bolt felt like I was sitting on a log. The middle was convex.

The seat problem could be solved with a fairly minor redesign. If they wanted to get past the GM stigma, GM should spin off a new brand like they did with Saturn. A lot of people who would otherwise not buy GM bought Saturns.

 

[scaesare]

... the seats in the Bolt would be a deal killer for me. With my long legs, I need the positions only available with power seats on a long trip and th seats in the Bolt felt like I was sitting on a log. The middle was convex.

We have it on good authority here that the seats in the Bolt cannot possibly be a problem.

 

[McRat]

Well that's a hot mess of "comparisons." It is meaningless to compare sales figures of much higher priced vehicles like the Corvette, Model S and X to the Bolt and Model 3. And comparing Bolt sales this year to sales last year at the same time when production and sales were still supposedly ramping up is also meaningless.

The fact remains that compared to similarly priced vehicles, Bolt sales of only ~1600/month in the U.S. are very weak. A successful model at that price point would be selling in the hundreds of thousands per year, not low tens of thousands. The slow sales shouldn't come as a surprise given the Bolt's shortcomings, but even though I have been pessimistic about the Bolt's prospects from the beginning it is doing even worse than I expected so far this year.

To be successful with EVs, GM needs to invest in the battery and EV drivetrain manufacturing infrastructure necessary to produce compelling EVs at high volume. Instead, GM has farmed out much of that to LG Chem and is left with a compromised vehicle that is not selling well.

You assume since GM is not mimicking Tesla, that they are lost when if comes running a car company. I'm not sure.

Tesla's losses per car delivered have climbed every month since July 2016, hitting a new record high of -$26,200 per car for 2018.
Tesla: vehicle deliveries by quarter 2018 | Statistic

So Tesla's are an excellent buy. Would GM sell more Bolt EVs at $11,300 MSRP ($850 after rebates in California)? Maybe, maybe not, but that has nothing to do with the Bolt program. It is targeted at being the first EV sold at a profit in the US. Is it profitable yet? Nobody knows, so I would assume 'not yet'.

50% of a Tesla is imported, and Panasonic is not domestic. Tesla could be one temper tantrum away from having no batteries, much like how they lost all Autopilot functionality for period after a dispute.

 

[wdolson]

You assume since GM is not mimicking Tesla, that they are lost when if comes running a car company. I'm not sure.

Tesla's losses per car delivered have climbed every month since July 2016, hitting a new record high of -$26,200 per car for 2018.
Tesla: vehicle deliveries by quarter 2018 | Statistic

So Tesla's are an excellent buy. Would GM sell more Bolt EVs at $11,300 MSRP ($850 after rebates in California)? Maybe, maybe not, but that has nothing to do with the Bolt program. It is targeted at being the first EV sold at a profit in the US. Is it profitable yet? Nobody knows, so I would assume 'not yet'.

There is a difference between how much a car company makes (or loses) overall per car sold and whether the company is selling the car at a loss. Tesla's gross profit per car sold is better than every major competitor in the business. They overall lose money because their fleet sales are not enough income to cover expansion and R&D. Tesla has had profitable quarters when they pulled in their horns and focused on selling cars. If they stopped expansion and R&D, they would be quite profitable, but that would be very short sighted and would hurt the company down the line.

On the other hand if a company is losing money per car, ie it costs more to build the car and get it delivered than they can make selling it, the company has a product that is not really viable unless it has some other benefit. Most of the EVs sold by mainstream car makers are compliance cars that cost more to make than they can sell them for and they only sell them because they have to by law in some states.

It's estimated GM loses about $7K to $10K per Bolt. That is it costs GM more money to make the car than they get selling them. It's unclear whether that includes the amortized costs of R&D of the car over the expected production run. If it includes R&D costs GM may be thinking that follow on projects will have a shallower R&D hill to climb as they leverage tech developed for the Bolt.

Tesla makes money per car, but loses money overall because they haven't sold enough cars (and solar installations) per year to cover their other expenses. Elon has been stating that Tesla will become profitable and remain profitable once Model 3 production hits stride. I've done some back of the envelope calculations and I'm sure he's right.

All other EVs appear to lose money per car. The companies can cover the losses with ICE sales which dwarf their EV sales and are generally quite profitable, but they are reluctant to scale up EV production because they can't figure out how to make money selling EVs.

Because Tesla is not overall profitable yet, the common consensus about the car industry people is that EVs can't be made at a profit right now. When Tesla becomes profitable and stays profitable, that will destroy that notion and could cause an existential crisis in the industry.

50% of a Tesla is imported, and Panasonic is not domestic. Tesla could be one temper tantrum away from having no batteries, much like how they lost all Autopilot functionality for period after a dispute.

There are a couple of different measures of how "American" a car is. Canada and US sourced parts are usually lumped together and Mexico sourcing is a separate line. Under NAFTA the total sourcing for parts from all three countries is important for determining whether they get slapped with a tariff or not in Canada and Mexico. Then there is whether the car's final assembly is in the US or not.

I can't find the window sticker from my car, but the Model S stickers posted online say 50-55% US/Canadian content with no mention of Mexican content. Model X stickers are similar. Model 3 stickers say 50% American and 25% Mexican.

Teslas are among the most American content cars. The highest is the Toyota Camry at 78% NAFTA sourced parts, so the Model 3 is very close.

 

[Jeff N]

Meanwhile....

Best EV bets for longer-distance driving

 

[Jeff N]

An uplifting story:

Hello, Dolly!: Bolt EV hooks up with RV but it doesn’t go as planned

 

[meomyo]

Agreed. The Model 3 with only one very expensive configuration, no leasing, no promotional interest rates and no factory rebates is outselling the Bolt 3:1. By June it’s plausible that it’ll be 5:1.

For the ‘19 model year the Bolt desperately needs standard DCFC, new seats, upgraded interior materials, ACC, and a $2500 price chop.

wait till service centers are overloaded when the 3 is out in full bloom..it will truely suck-many suck now but just wait.