Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[more863-also]

What are you even talking about? Under what circumstance would Teslas 'flood the stalls' at EA sites? Gee, why wouldn't people line up for... 50kW charging that's way more expensive than SCing?

And please forgive me if I completely discount any 'EA says', 'in the future', nonsense. Once again, there's no reason for VW to build out these stations further - lest we forget that the entire reason they're building them out in the first place is a court order. There is no vested interest for them to scale this up the way there is for a manufacturer-owned, single-marque network.

Lastly, your obsession with 'b-b-but years ago Tesla was doing similar things' is hilarious. Nobody cares. The issue is *today*, as in the present - even if your comparisons with what a tiny startup was doing half a decade ago with what the largest corporations in the world are doing in 2018 wasn't hilarious enough. Things change, installing a 4 charger stall (which, by the way, EA is doing in *urban and suburban* areas in addition to rural ones) is no longer impressive.

You're just a dog with a bone, first it's "CCS chargers will be empty versus overcrowded SCs because nobody drives CCS cars", now it's "everyone has moved over to CCS, why would they bother installing the most used DC fast charging nozzle in greater quantities". Keep flailing.

 

[Jeff N]

What are you even talking about? Under what circumstance would Teslas 'flood the stalls' at EA sites? Gee, why wouldn't people line up for... 50kW charging that's way more expensive than SCing?

There are some times of the year like holiday periods where charging congestion will increase. When faced with the choice of a busy Supercharger with power-split stall vs a 50 kW available stall at an EA charger some would likely pay to avoid the line. If a Tesla at an EA stall requires a CHAdeMO adapter and only one stall supports CHAdeMO that prevents the more prevalent Tesla cars from using all the stalls at both Supercharger and EA sites in a congested area.

You're just a dog with a bone, first it's "CCS chargers will be empty versus overcrowded SCs because nobody drives CCS cars", now it's "everyone has moved over to CCS, why would they bother installing the most used DC fast charging nozzle in greater quantities".

I never said “everyone has moved over to CCS, why would they bother installing the most used DC fast charging nozzle in greater quantities".

 

[scaesare]

I mention it to set the context that all of this DC charging is relatively new. That Supercharger site was 8 months in the past. Most of the currently known EA sites are 8 months in the future. The point being that this is all a moving target. Tesla obviously started installations ~5 years before EA so they have a very usable network now but will be scrambling to scale it as cars are poring out of the Fremont factory at an increasingly rapid pace. EA is working at building coverage with mostly 4-stall sites outside metro areas but compared to Tesla there are relatively few long-range CCS cars on the road that they are catering to and the growth in such cars vs Tesla is going to be much slower for the next several years.

In the next several years, it’s not clear to me that Tesla will have an advantage with congestion at charging sites like the ones we were discussing although Tesla will clearly have more locations and thus better convenience.


What’s wrong with that sentiment? I’m just trying to be realistic. Elon says this is going to be a challenge. I’m not making my statements or estimations out of negativity. I think these are “first world problems” or challenges that come from success.

In some sense, the opposite is true for EA site usability. VW has to put all this EA charging in due to failure (dieselgate) and it may initially scale faster vs the number of CCS cars on the road because of the relatively tentative production commitments from conventional car makers for the next several years.

Above all, EVs and non-urban charging infrastructure is rapidly improving all around and this is important and necessary good news at a time when good news can be scarce. Good news but still fraught with challenges ahead.

You can decide if you want to accept what's intended to be constructive feedback or not. And based on the ratings on my post, I'm not the only one that perceives this slant in your writing.

Given that you post a public blog, I thought you may find valuable to know there's some bias apparent in the way you write. But maybe you don't.

 

[Jeff N]

You can decide if you want to accept what's intended to be constructive feedback or not. And based on the ratings on my post, I'm not the only one that perceives this slant in your writing.

Given that you post a public blog, I thought you may find valuable to know there's some bias apparent in the way you write.

That’s certainly not my intent. I try to view things from multiple angles and present information accurately and in a balanced way. Of course, I’m not perfect. I sometimes notice errors or omissions and have to make corrections, but I’m trying to get it right.

 

[abasile]

I don't think it's even worth trying to compare road-tripping in a Tesla S/3/X vs. in a Bolt. It's quite clear that the Tesla ecosystem is superior for long distance travel, and that it's likely to remain that way for some time.

That being said, I truly appreciate reading of non-Tesla EV owners taking road trips. The fact is that not everyone has the ability and/or inclination to spend extra for a Tesla. Today's Model 3 "Mid Range" (lemur) is still about $10k more than what a Bolt can be purchased for, at least in California. Some people are nervous, for various reasons, about buying from Tesla. For others, the fact that the Model 3 isn't a hatchback is a showstopper. If the Bolt (and Ioniq, LEAF, etc.) can help more people to switch to EVs today, then I'm all for it.

In that context, the fact that the Bolt can be used for long distance trips is a great thing. It will take some extra sacrifices, but if the Bolt happens to be your car, it's good to know that you can travel with it if you need to. I can relate to this because we drove a lowly 2011 Nissan LEAF as our primary car for five years before buying our first Tesla. I made sacrifices to drive the LEAF because I wanted to support EVs and not burn gasoline. Trips that we now make with ease in our Teslas, on a single charge from home, required multiple charging stops in the LEAF. Obviously, the Bolt is a far more capable car than the 2011 LEAF, but a Tesla with Supercharger access it is not.

 

[more863-also]

This is fair but it's important to remember that Bolts aren't cheap outside of CARB states. It's similar in price to a LEMR in Colorado.

 

[Jeff N]

I don't think it's even worth trying to compare road-tripping in a Tesla S/3/X vs. in a Bolt. It's quite clear that the Tesla ecosystem is superior for long distance travel, and that it's likely to remain that way for some time.

True.

The key takeaway, I think, is that Bolt road-tripping for most areas of the country will be dramatically easier with all of the new EA sites coming by next summer than it was this past summer. Less planning. Less concern about broken hardware. More charging location flexibility. Somewhat faster charging.

This is true even though long-distance in a Bolt will be somewhat more leisurely and charger coverage won’t be as good as in a Tesla. Nonetheless, even at 55 kW charging, it can be a pleasant pace of driving.

Also note that some Konas, 60 kWh LEAFs, I-PACE’s and even e-trons may be on the road by then as well and they can reportedly charge at rates of 75, 100, and near 150 kW.

 

[RubberToe]

The following public service announcement is provided courtesy of RubberToe...

Those Bolt owners in SoCal planning on driving to Las Vegas and gassing up in Baker should pay close attention to the following info on Plugshare.

Save yourself the aggravation of these pool helpless souls who nearly suffered the same fate as the Donner Party did many years ago. I have not heard of any reports of cannibalism, but will be following the events closely and reporting back as needed.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED ! ! !

 

[more863-also]

No, sorry, that can't be true. I was told the CCS network in the West is rock solid reliable and easily the peer of Tesla. LOL

 

[RubberToe]

The following public service announcement is provided courtesy of RubberToe...

Those Bolt owners in SoCal planning on driving to Las Vegas and gassing up in Baker should pay close attention to the following info on Plugshare.

Save yourself the aggravation of these pool helpless souls who nearly suffered the same fate as the Donner Party did many years ago. I have not heard of any reports of cannibalism, but will be following the events closely and reporting back as needed.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED ! ! !

Oh no, its happening. Live pictures from the charger parking lot...

 

[RiverBrick]

Also note that some Konas, 60 kWh LEAFs, I-PACE’s and even e-trons may be on the road by then as well and they can reportedly charge at rates of 75, 100, and near 150 kW.

EA doesn't appear to be supporting CHAdeMO at over 50 kW, so there may not be many places where a LEAF can get 75 kW.

 

[Jeff N]

Those Bolt owners in SoCal planning on driving to Las Vegas and gassing up in Baker should pay close attention to the following info on Plugshare.

Save yourself the aggravation of these pool helpless souls who nearly suffered the same fate as the Donner Party did many years ago. I have not heard of any reports of cannibalism, but will be following the events closely and reporting back as needed.

Bolts don’t actually need to stop in Baker to get to Las Vegas although it certainly makes it more convenient.

The EVgo work seems to be mostly done. It’s a mystery why they have been offline with the 50 kW chargers during the last ~3 weeks even if the newer chargers weren’t fully ready and inspected to go.

Someone had claimed to successfully charge at 150 kW on one of the newly installed chargers back on October 30 which inspired me to write a Halloween article about the updates there. In retrospect, the check-in on PlugShare was probably someone trolling EVgo.

Still, the article has a lot of new info on the upgrades and some background on why it has taken so long to happen.

Fun fact: EVgo’s CPUC document proposing the Baker site project was filed on April Fools Day in 2015.

EVgo 350 kW charging site sparks to life on Halloween Eve

EA doesn't appear to be supporting CHAdeMO at over 50 kW, so there may not be many places where a LEAF can get 75 kW.

Today’s LEAFs can’t really charge over 50 kW so that’s not a problem yet for LEAFs although it hinders the few people driving Kia Soul EVs who could be charging at 65-70 kW.

By the time the 2019 LEAF arrives in the US, Electrify America may lift the 50 kW limit and allow the full 100 kW potential of the actual charging hardware via a software update. They have said they will do this at some point.

In the longer run, it should be technically easy to upgrade the CHAdeMO cables to be liquid cooled and capable of 150 kW or more but it may not be in the EA/VW business interest to do this.

 

[miimura]

The Recargo site in Prunedale already has 200A CHAdeMO cables, so that level (~80kW) is easy to accomplish. During the soft launch, they arbitrarily set the CHAdeMO ports to 150A max. We should get more details about the 350kW BTC hardware there at the final site launch.

 

[more863-also]

Why would they upgrade the cables when they're clearly hostile to CdM and the prices incentivize them to slow their charging?

 

[Jeff N]

The Recargo site in Prunedale already has 200A CHAdeMO cables, so that level (~80kW) is easy to accomplish. During the soft launch, they arbitrarily set the CHAdeMO ports to 150A max. We should get more details about the 350kW BTC hardware there at the final site launch.

EA has done the same thing... the cables are rated for 200A but the software configuration has temporarily de-rated them to 125A.

The Recargo BTC Power hardware is capable of providing dedicated 200 kW to all six of the charging pedestals but they are actually wired as 3 pairs of pedestals connected to charging cabinets that are capable of dynamically splitting power between the pairs. So, at some point, they may choose to reconfigure them to provide up to 350 kW for one pedestal when the other pedestal in the pair is inactive or charging at reduced rates.

 

[Jeff N]

Why would they upgrade the cables when they're clearly hostile to CdM and the prices incentivize them to slow their charging?

They have already said publicly that they intend to lift the limit up to the hardware’s 200A/100 kW capability. I think some early ABB installations in Europe followed a similar approach of initially limiting the CHAdeMO cables to 125A/50 kW.

 

[miimura]

EA has done the same thing... the cables are rated for 200A but the software configuration has temporarily de-rated them to 125A.

The Recargo BTC Power hardware is capable of providing dedicated 200 kW to all six of the charging pedestals but they are actually wired as 3 pairs of pedestals connected to charging cabinets that are capable of dynamically splitting power between the pairs. So, at some point, they may choose to reconfigure them to provide up to 350 kW for one pedestal when the other pedestal in the pair is inactive or charging at reduced rates.

You're right, I remembered it wrong. It's not 350kW dedicated. The cabinets are 200kW and there is one pedestal per cabinet. When I talked to the guy during the soft launch he said that they could have gone with 1 cabinet to 2 pedestals and split the power when two cars were connected to each cabinet. However, they wanted this first site to have the full capability and not have to come back and upgrade it later since they had the funding to "do it right" from the start. I did not get any information from him to corroborate your assertion that they can aggregate power above 200kW. Even BTC's product page does not explicitly say that, even though the dispenser is rated for 350kW.
BTCPower

 

[Jeff N]

The EVgo work seems to be mostly done. It’s a mystery why they have been offline with the 50 kW chargers during the last ~3 weeks even if the newer chargers weren’t fully ready and inspected to go.

The EA site at Baker is finally back online as of Nov. 12 with the original two 50 kW chargers. The four new chargers are apparently not quite available yet.

 

[more863-also]

Totally a sign of a very mature CCS network that can take you anywhere when entire locations are broken for weeks.

Like, people probably had to get flipping towed out of there. My wife would never forgive me if we had to get towed due to lack of charge, we'd be in a gasser the next day.

 

[Sean Wagner]

Oh no, its happening. Live pictures from the charger parking lot...

That's a sinister vision of a chargecue alright.