Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[Jeff N]

I haven't seen an evidence of 80 kW CCS chargers anywhere, let alone in a rid where you'd want to travel, but I guess it could happen.

Switzerland has already announced plans to put in over 100 "150 kW" CCS stations and Fastned is talking about aggressively adding similar stations in the Netherlands. One of those units is already experimentally installed in Norway as a prelude to rolling them out there as well. As I've posted already, there will be VW consent decree money sloshing around as early as next year targeted for EV charging infrastructure and Audi has stated plans to organize and install at least 175 chargers along highway routes prior to selling their long-range Q6 BEV in 2018.

I see little reason to doubt that fast CCS charging with 200A+ stations will be available soon, especially in areas adjacent to where most electric cars are sold and driven on the highway.

 

[Saghost]

Switzerland has already announced plans to put in over 100 "150 kW" CCS stations and Fastned is talking about aggressively adding similar stations in the Netherlands. One of those units is already experimentally installed in Norway as a prelude to rolling them out there as well. As I've posted already, there will be VW consent decree money sloshing around as early as next year targeted for EV charging infrastructure and Audi has stated plans to organize and install at least 175 chargers along highway routes prior to selling their long-range Q6 BEV in 2018.

I see little reason to doubt that fast CCS charging with 200A+ stations will be available soon, especially in areas adjacent to where most electric cars are sold and driven on the highway.

Hope you're right.

I'm not that confident yet myself, but I'll happily watch them prove me wrong.

 

[stopcrazypp]

And Tesla seems to have done something in either the newest firmware or more recent batteries to carry higher power levels further into the session. I wasn't saying the Bolt on release will be as good a road trip car as a modern Tesla is.

My point was just that if the multiple preconditions Zoomit offered came true, the Bolt wouldn't be much worse than an early S60 was for a road trip - credible if not great.

I haven't seen an evidence of 80 kW CCS chargers anywhere, let alone in a rid where you'd want to travel, but I guess it could happen.

The only reason why there are mainly still 50kW CCS chargers is because most of them are dual standard (and most CHAdeMO connectors/sockets are limited to 125A). So they designed the chargers to serve the lowest common denominator (24kW BMW chargers are the exception, where they were designed like replacements for high power AC level 2).

However, the Combo socket/connector was designed from the start to support 200A (I browsed some Chinese suppliers and all the sockets/connectors support 200A). This unlike CHAdeMO which was designed to support 125A (with future option of 200A in same physical dimensions), so most connectors/sockets available now still max out at 125A.

It is highly likely the socket the Bolt uses would support 200A, but if GM decides to limit the car to 125A, that would be because they chose to save money on the wiring and/or the contactors, which would be a dumb move in terms of future proofing the car. It won't matter if you only intend to lease the car or own it for only a few years, but if you want to own it for at least the 8 year warranty period, then I think it does cripple the car.

 

[RiverBrick]

...

I see little reason to doubt that fast CCS charging with 200A+ stations will be available soon, especially in areas adjacent to where most electric cars are sold and driven on the highway.

What is your definition of soon?

If it's less than two years, I have a reason to doubt : there could be very few vehicles equipped to accept 200a CCS charging within that time-frame. This would make for massive power on demand expenses for the benefit of a tiny fraction of EVs.

Yes, the Bolt could support 200a, but GM certainly hasn't confirmed it.

 

[Jeff N]

What is your definition of soon?

If it's less than two years, I have a reason to doubt : there could be very few vehicles equipped to accept 200a CCS charging within that time-frame. This would make for massive power on demand expenses for the benefit of a tiny fraction of EVs.

Yes, the Bolt could support 200a, but GM certainly hasn't confirmed it.

VW/Audi has said publicly that they plan to have at least 175 stations installed prior to their first long-range BEV going on the market in 2018. They will be under a court and EPA/CARB supervised consent decree starting next year requiring them to spend $200 million a year (actually $500 million every 2.5 years for 4 periods for a total 10 year time period).

So, they will have the money, they have BEV product coming out, and the cash will be burning a hole in their pocket -- they have to spend it or else get into trouble for not complying with the decree.

 

[Jeff N]

It is highly likely the socket the Bolt uses would support 200A, but if GM decides to limit the car to 125A, that would be because they chose to save money on the wiring and/or the contactors, which would be a dumb move in terms of future proofing the car. It won't matter if you only intend to lease the car or own it for only a few years, but if you want to own it for at least the 8 year warranty period, then I think it does cripple the car.

The Bolt's chief engineer said in a published interview that GM has validated the car charging at rates above 50kW / 125A but had not yet decided what the final specs would be.

The exact quote was:

We’re still figuring out how fast we want to go. We’ve over validated a lot of our components just in case, but were still figuring out if we want to limit it to say, 50kW’s or 60kW’s or possibly higher. That decision hasn’t been made yet but I can promise it won’t be lower than 50kW.”

The battery pack itself is fine with output of 400A (150 kW on a nominal pack voltage of 350V) so charging at 200A or even more should not be a wiring or contactor problem.

 

[RiverBrick]

...

So, they will have the money, they have BEV product coming out, and the cash will be burning a hole in their pocket -- they have to spend it or else get into trouble for not complying with the decree.

There is no guarantee their product will arrive in time and even if they install 200a stations, hosts could dial them down to 125a or less. You see that now at places that take 50 kW stations and cripple them to 22 kW or less in order to cap electricity bills.

 

[Jeff N]

There is no guarantee their product will arrive in time and even if they install 200a stations, hosts could dial them down to 125a or less. You see that now at places that take 50 kW stations and cripple them to 22 kW or less in order to cap electricity bills.

It doesn't matter exactly when their BEVs arrive at the dealer since the immediate motivator is the consent decree but I assume it helps that they will have car customers wanting to use those stations to charge their fancy 2018 Audi Q6 or 2019 200-mile e-golf. VW has claimed they will be aggressive about having these cars support "150 kW" charging and customers will be wanting stations on the highway that utilize that capability. VW has to follow through on the charging side because they will otherwise lose customers to Tesla.

 

[techmaven]

Interesting ... 90kW is the lower limit of L3 DC charging.

Cutting off my point, I see. My point is that SAE level 3 is what is necessary to support DC charging for long distance BEVs. Anything short of that is really not... hence the cut off of 90 kW. Note that Tesla modeled this and that's why the original Supercharger output was chosen at 90 kWh. Tesla is looking to replace ICE with their vehicles. Shipping a BEV without SAE level 3 charging indicates that the manufacturer isn't designing an ICE replacement. So while one can DC charge at less than 90 kW, it doesn't actually make any sense. Anything less should be AC, up to 80A.

It would be a real shame if the Bolt ships with less than 90 kW of real world charging. Not this 100 kW on 200 amp bs... real world throughput on 200 amps is 70-75 kW. No, it should ship with 300 amps or better. The ZEV credit mandate should have included both 200 miles of UDDS, or better EPA range and SAE level 3 charging. Otherwise, the Bolt helps perpetuate the lunacy that is 200 amp or less DC charging.

We still then have the problem of spacing with a vehicle like the Bolt, which will hopefully fall short of the real long distance vehicles to come in 2018 through 2021 from non-Tesla manufacturers. Those cars and owners would be screwed if the new CCS network is built around the Bolt.

 

[AndY1]

Kia's Soul EV has been on the road for 2 years and has a 30kWh battery pack, which supported 100kW CHADEMO from the start.
Kia Installs First 100 kW CHAdeMO DC Fast Chargers In Europe

Bolt EV, having a 60kWh battery pack, should be able to charge at 100kW.

 

[techmaven]

Kia's Soul EV has been on the road for 2 years and has a 30kWh battery pack, which supported 100kW CHADEMO from the start.
Kia Installs First 100 kW CHAdeMO DC Fast Chargers In Europe

Bolt EV, having a 60kWh battery pack, should be able to charge at 100kW.

Kia Soul EV can hook up to a 100 kW nominal CHAdeMO EVSE, but it cannot actually take 100 kW. About 70-72 kW is what it can actually take. It is an impressive charging c-rate, but it tapers fast. Similarly, a Bolt can only take about 70-75 kW on a 200 amp "100 kW" CCS EVSE. Due to the low amperage, a Soul EV starts charging in the low 60's... and climbs towards 70, then tapers down.

350 volts at 200 amps = 70 kW. The charge taper kicks in and these packs all top out around 400 volts. 100 kW is a nominal rating... at 500 volts. Similarly, a 135 kW or 145 kW Supercharger can only charge a Model S/X at 120 kW due to the charge taper on the Model S/X.

 

[SageBrush]

0-60 times have never interested me, but 15-85 times do. Charging times for SOC change, that is.

 

[AndY1]

Similarly, a Bolt can only take about 70-75 kW on a 200 amp "100 kW" CCS EVSE.

Anything above 50kW is good. And if I recall correctly, CCS port/charging will be an option, so if I pay for the CCS extra, at least let it be a capable one.

 

[Jeff N]

My point is that SAE level 3 is what is necessary to support DC charging for long distance BEVs. Anything short of that is really not... hence the cut off of 90 kW. Note that Tesla modeled this and that's why the original Supercharger output was chosen at 90....It would be a real shame if the Bolt ships with less than 90 kW of real world charging. Not this 100 kW on 200 amp bs... real world throughput on 200 amps is 70-75 kW.

Okay, so Tesla's original 90 kW output didn't really have to do with that CCS spec image after all....

So while one can DC charge at less than 90 kW, it doesn't actually make any sense. Anything less should be AC, up to 80A.

Um, 80A AC is just under 20 kW. Your saying it makes no sense to have charging options between 20-90 kW? Anywhere? Even in low-traffic rural areas with limited power transmission access?

Did Tesla violate your sense of DC rectitude by sharing charging hardware between pairs of charging stalls such that a charging car can get less than 90 kW?

I agree that the Bolt should be designed for at least 200A and preferably should be able to take more if plugged into a future Level 3 station. But, realistically, it was designed and will be sold prior to the actual Level 3 specification being finalized and published.

Since there really aren't any 200A CCS stations deployed today I think the initial stations which actually get sold for highway roadtrip charging in the next 5 years will actually be sold as Level 3 although mostly without liquid cable and plug cooling so they may be limited to sustained charging under 250A but perhaps with an initial starting rate of up to 300A.

In other words, 90-100 kW of actual charging rate. Perhaps there will also be a few 'premium' 250A stations that can supply up to 1000V scattered in as well and even a few 'super premium' chargers that can supply up to 1000V at up to 350-400A with liquid cooled cables and plugs.

It's looking like the real initial outlay of highway CCS charging will come from VW and their Dieselgate decree money and they know they need competitive charging for the long-term and won't be designing or proposing infrastructure based on 2017 GM Bolt EV limitations.

 

[techmaven]

Okay, so Tesla's original 90 kW output didn't really have to do with that CCS spec image after all....

That SAE chart was before CCS... it's 2011. Tesla, as could SAE, DoE and DoT can calculate out the necessary charging specs for long distance BEVs back then. Tesla was still lobbying SAE at that point and finalizing the Supercharger specs. SAE didn't bother to release CCS until much later.

Um, 80A AC is just under 20 kW. Your saying it makes no sense to have charging options between 20-90 kW? Anywhere? Even in low-traffic rural areas with limited power transmission access?

Yup. The cost of DC charging under 300 amps is too high for its power level. The use cases make no sense. The cost of installing 24 kW CCS for example is near $10,000 per plug. The cost of 40-50 kW is more like $35,000 to $50,000 per plug. The use cases where a low or medium range BEV could really benefit are low. It would make far more sense to install 3-5 more J1772's such that the low to medium range BEV could destination charge for hours, rather than a weak DC charge.

Did Tesla violate your sense of DC rectitude by sharing charging hardware between pairs of charging stalls such that a charging car can get less than 90 kW?

Tesla quickly moved to 120 and then 135 kW charging such that 90 kW is far more likely than not in shared charging situations.

In other words, 90-100 kW of actual charging rate. Perhaps there will also be a few 'premium' 250A stations that can supply up to 1000V scattered in as well and even a few 'super premium' chargers that can supply up to 1000V at up to 350-400A with liquid cooled cables and plugs.

That's not really the makings of a long distance charging network. It is haphazard. And you have overload of people plugging 45 to 70 kW max charging rate vehicles into those high speed EVSE's.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The Bolt's chief engineer said in a published interview that GM has validated the car charging at rates above 50kW / 125A but had not yet decided what the final specs would be.

The exact quote was:

That bit is vague enough that it doesn't guarantee 200A support. It only guarantees 50kW with some wiggle room. I guess we will see very soon by the end of the year.

The battery pack itself is fine with output of 400A (150 kW on a nominal pack voltage of 350V) so charging at 200A or even more should not be a wiring or contactor problem.

Charge and discharge are not symmetrical, so what a pack can do on discharge can be completely different from charge. For example, the S60 can do 225kW discharge, but charge is only 105kW.

The wiring I am talking about is from the charge port to the battery pack. This is independent of the wiring from the motor/power electronics to the battery (which would be a lot beefier to support high discharge power). The contactor I am talking about is also independent of the main battery contactor. I am talking about the contactor that switches between the onboard charger and the DC power pins on the Combo socket.

 

[Jay Hawk]

I feel that the Chevy Bolt, Chevy Volt are great for the transition into the next generation. No matter whether you are a Tesla-fanboy-die-hard or just wanting the next wave of electron-powered-cars to show up, this will get people to accept it more quickly. Those buyers will also likely be more likely to make the next upgrade also EV, but possibly want to step up to a fancier one (like Tesla).
I don't think there is need to thumb your nose at this and say that any Tesla is innately better. The market has needs for all kinds, and this is great that a major company has put their eggs in the EV market. I love watching the future arrive!

 

[McRat]

I think the interstate range problems with EV's (all EV's) is over-rated. It affects a fairly small percentage of drivers.

No, you cannot go everywhere in North America with any EV today. Yet they still sell them, and folk still buy them. Not even a radical drop in gas prices stopped the sales, something the handwringers guaranteed would happen.

People will buy EV's as commuter cars. They are wonderful in traffic. Smaller ones are even better for narrow streets and small parking stalls. They have bought over 100,000 short range EVs in the USA so far. Ones that cannot go coast to coast, or charge rapidly.

Those who own EREV's note that 90% of their driving is covered with a 30 mile range.

As far as charging rate goes, the current (har) thick cells that LG puts in cars will certainly go over 3C charge rate. Only cooling systems limit them.

I doubt the initial 2017 Bolt will be 100kW charging. There is nothing to plug it into yet. But for 2018? Probably.

I certainly hope the Model 3 has a CCS option. There are far, far more CCS locations in my region than Superchargers.

 

[Jeff N]

The use cases where a low or medium range BEV could really benefit are low. It would make far more sense to install 3-5 more J1772's such that the low to medium range BEV could destination charge for hours, rather than a weak DC charge.

The use case I mentioned was driving in rural low-traffic areas with limited power connections with road tripping in a long-range BEV. Such a driver would be very disappointed to arrive and find only AC plugs instead of a < 90 kW DC charging station.

That SAE chart was before CCS... it's 2011. Tesla, as could SAE, DoE and DoT can calculate out the necessary charging specs for long distance BEVs back then. Tesla was still lobbying SAE at that point and finalizing the Supercharger specs. SAE didn't bother to release CCS until much later.

The big CCS media announcement by the 7 automakers was at the end of 2011. That document is version 03162011 presumably meaning March 16, 2011. I believe it was a draft document and not the final SAE standard which was capped at 500V rather than the 450V shown in the draft.

Charge and discharge are not symmetrical, so what a pack can do on discharge can be completely different from charge. For example, the S60 can do 225kW discharge, but charge is only 105kW.

Sure, that's a typical pattern for lithium battery specifications. The Model S had heavy duty motors, wiring, and inverters shared with the S85, I suspect, so the real limitation probably was the battery cells. It's not clear that the 150 kW max on the Bolt EV is due to the actual cells as opposed to cost issues with other components or battery cooling. It's possible that the Bolt cells themselves would be fine with charging at more than half of the 150 kW pack discharge rate. Even then, charging at 75 kW implies 200A.

The wiring I am talking about is from the charge port to the battery pack. This is independent of the wiring from the motor/power electronics to the battery (which would be a lot beefier to support high discharge power).

That's a short distance cable that is unique to cars with the presumed DC charging option. I can't image that cost issues would prevent slightly upsizing the cable to allow for 200-250A charging.

The contactor I am talking about is also independent of the main battery contactor. I am talking about the contactor that switches between the onboard charger and the DC power pins on the Combo socket.

I don't know enough about DC charging hardware to speculate about that.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Sure, that's a typical pattern for lithium battery specifications. The Model S had heavy duty motors, wiring, and inverters shared with the S85, I suspect, so the real limitation probably was the battery cells. It's not clear that the 150 kW max on the Bolt EV is due to the actual cells as opposed to cost issues with other components or battery cooling. It's possible that the Bolt cells themselves would be fine with charging at more than half of the 150 kW pack discharge rate. Even then, charging at 75 kW implies 200A.

I'm not speculating on the Bolt's pack, I'm just making a general comment that charge/discharge power is typically not symmetrical for li-ion batteries.

That's a short distance cable that is unique to cars with the presumed DC charging option. I can't image that cost issues would prevent slightly upsizing the cable to allow for 200-250A charging.

It largely depends on if there are still the "old GM" bean counters around. Remember, their ignition switch problems were from trying to save 57 cents on a part. That distance of cable (at least a few feet) can easily be more than a dollar's worth of difference between a 125A vs a 200A cable (at least 2-3 sizes in difference looking at AWG).