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Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)
- Thread starter FredTMC
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I agree there is a significant customer base that would opt for a Model 3 in that segment, just as they'd opt for a BMW or Toyota ICE. On the other hand, there's a large population for whom the Big 3 is their default choice.
If nothing else, it opens the door in that space and other manufacturers may find they better follow suit or potentially find themselves without an entry on an increasingly growing market.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
People don't buy imports because they hate the Big 3. They buy them because the accumulated reputation over decades for better build quality of the Japanese at the lower end and superior performance of the Germans at the high end.
Consumer Reports confirms that Japanese cars are of higher quality than the Detroit cars even though the gap has shrunk considerably and a typical GM or Ford car is of higher quality than a 1990 Camry or Accord which solidified the Japanese reputations.
And the enthusiast magazines confirm the overall superior performance of the Germans at the high end.
But West Coasters buy Volts over Prius Plug In.
Why? Better car. Endorsed by CR and enthusiast magazines.
If Ford and GM want to sell more cars on the West Coast make better cars.
Truck buyers overall and car buyers in the Mid West and South have a stronger domestic bias.
Typical West Coast car buyers won't buy an inferior GM or Ford for patriotic reasons.
skdave
Member
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yep. The Big 3 only has themselves to blame for establishing a reputation of poor reliability and quality during the 90s. It wasn't until the very late 2000s that they woke up and started focusing a lot more on quality and reliability (for Chevy the 2008+ Malibu and Cruze were the first turning point), but by that time their bad reputation was strongly ingrained and the financial crisis was the last straw. Now they have to work very hard to turn around that reputation (although recent massive recalls didn't help, although the Japanese makes had recalls of their own).
You're more on target than you think. When I leased my 2011 Volt the salesman was sure to proudly hand me a 'first oil change free' certificate, which my dealer gives with every car. Well, a Volt only needs an oil change every 2 years (when run on over ~60% electric - I'm around 75%). So on a three year lease I spent $0 on oil changes.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if my dealership continues to give out 'free first oil change' certificates for Chevy Bolts.
I can hear Neil Cavuto now, "Only a nut would by a Bolt!"
IIRC Tesla puts the Superchargers in their marketing budget. They probably don't expect others to come on board... but if they do they can deal with it then. Like I said there's no reason we couldn't have a mix of GM and Tesla branded Superchargers out there. Would be very impressive if that ever happened. Not expecting it!
True, but they're not easy either. And they take time. And they're not analogous to gas stations where different companies sell the same thing dispensed out of the same nozzles. I think fast charging networks are basically the vhs-beta battle of the near future.
Almost worse than a car maker underestimating the need for fast charge network compatibility altogether is to bet the dont come against Tesla. Short of a major undertaking by a consortium of car makers (and an underground industry in the valley), its hard to fathom any network overtaking Tesla's.
tonybelding
Active Member
You know, I was going to wait until tomorrow after the official reveal before spouting off, but then I looked and saw 15 pages of reactions already posted. So... Why wait? 
First up, BOLT is a lousy name for a car. But this must be a GM tradition or something. Remember the IMPACT?
I've already seen another article by that one guy who is always short-selling Tesla, claiming that this GM announcement is going to cause Tesla's stock price to collapse. There's some wishful thinking at work. This isn't going to spell any kind of doom for Tesla. If anything it'll give Tesla (and possibly Nissan) more credibility. It's also entirely possible that both GM and Tesla together will be supply-constrained, unable to keep up with demand for cars in this category. No, Tesla won't be the loser. The losers will be all the car companies that don't make electric cars, or that only make compliance cars. They're all going to find themselves even further behind the curve.
As for how the two products will stack up -- Bolt versus Model 3 -- considering how little we know of either... I'm confident the engineering talent exists at both Tesla and GM to turn out great designs. Getting them into production will be the challenge. In the short run, GM has an advantage in the amount of capital they can raise and the manufacturing resources already at their disposal. Longer-term, Tesla has an advantage with their established Supercharger network and the Gigafactory. GM may come to regret depending on an outside source (LG Chem) for their batteries. GM, like most car makers, never outsourced engines; they kept control of their core technology. Batteries are the core technology for BEVs.
First up, BOLT is a lousy name for a car. But this must be a GM tradition or something. Remember the IMPACT?
I've already seen another article by that one guy who is always short-selling Tesla, claiming that this GM announcement is going to cause Tesla's stock price to collapse. There's some wishful thinking at work. This isn't going to spell any kind of doom for Tesla. If anything it'll give Tesla (and possibly Nissan) more credibility. It's also entirely possible that both GM and Tesla together will be supply-constrained, unable to keep up with demand for cars in this category. No, Tesla won't be the loser. The losers will be all the car companies that don't make electric cars, or that only make compliance cars. They're all going to find themselves even further behind the curve.
As for how the two products will stack up -- Bolt versus Model 3 -- considering how little we know of either... I'm confident the engineering talent exists at both Tesla and GM to turn out great designs. Getting them into production will be the challenge. In the short run, GM has an advantage in the amount of capital they can raise and the manufacturing resources already at their disposal. Longer-term, Tesla has an advantage with their established Supercharger network and the Gigafactory. GM may come to regret depending on an outside source (LG Chem) for their batteries. GM, like most car makers, never outsourced engines; they kept control of their core technology. Batteries are the core technology for BEVs.
I agree with others that Tesla's Superchargers, unless adopted by the competition, will be a key differentiator. At least in North America, at this stage of the game, I believe the only way to provide a useful, reliable, coast to coast fast charging network is to keep it under the direct control of the manufacturer(s), for the following reasons:
1. The business case for fast charging, as a standalone service, is tenuous at best. The equipment is fairly expensive. To even begin to have some payback, the price of charging would generally have to be higher than the equivalent amount of gasoline, especially in areas such as California with expensive electricity and/or demand charges for high power utilization. Electricity costs can be tempered by installing solar and/or batteries, but then the capital costs are higher.
2. Car dealers, notably a great many Nissan dealers, are often not interested in paying for upkeep and electricity even if the fast chargers are "free". Many Nissan dealers, when confronted with unexpected large electric bills owing to demand charges, turned their fast chargers over to third party charging networks which then charge $10-$15 for ~40 miles worth of electricity. (The dealer I bought my LEAF from is using ChargePoint, and they collect $10 per fast charge, whenever the single charger actually happens to be working.)
3. From experience, I can say that even the most pleasant car dealerships are not places that people will want to have to visit in order to charge. In the early days, I enjoyed explaining the workings of my LEAF to many salespeople when stopping at Nissan dealerships for mostly L2 charging. However, as a general rule when charging, you don't really want to be surrounded by salespeople hoping you'll buy a car on impulse.
4. Car dealerships tend to be clustered in urban and suburban areas, not out in the boonies along the highways where needed to support charging on long trips.
5. Third party networks that offer fast charging are not generally viable without subsidies.
6. Manufacturers like Tesla have every reason to maintain a viable charging network to promote their vehicles. Why should they "outsource" something that is so critical to their business?
7. Manufacturers have sufficient access to capital to achieve efficiencies of scale, i.e., multiple chargers per location, investment in solar/batteries, etc.
8. Instead of manufacturers, governments could take it upon themselves to build charging networks and keep them subsidized. However, would you rather have the DOE build your network, or Tesla? The DOE already gave us the Blink Network...
Unless GM invests in a robust fast charging network, or joins forces with Tesla, the Bolt will be a hard sell compared to the Model 3.
1. The business case for fast charging, as a standalone service, is tenuous at best. The equipment is fairly expensive. To even begin to have some payback, the price of charging would generally have to be higher than the equivalent amount of gasoline, especially in areas such as California with expensive electricity and/or demand charges for high power utilization. Electricity costs can be tempered by installing solar and/or batteries, but then the capital costs are higher.
2. Car dealers, notably a great many Nissan dealers, are often not interested in paying for upkeep and electricity even if the fast chargers are "free". Many Nissan dealers, when confronted with unexpected large electric bills owing to demand charges, turned their fast chargers over to third party charging networks which then charge $10-$15 for ~40 miles worth of electricity. (The dealer I bought my LEAF from is using ChargePoint, and they collect $10 per fast charge, whenever the single charger actually happens to be working.)
3. From experience, I can say that even the most pleasant car dealerships are not places that people will want to have to visit in order to charge. In the early days, I enjoyed explaining the workings of my LEAF to many salespeople when stopping at Nissan dealerships for mostly L2 charging. However, as a general rule when charging, you don't really want to be surrounded by salespeople hoping you'll buy a car on impulse.
4. Car dealerships tend to be clustered in urban and suburban areas, not out in the boonies along the highways where needed to support charging on long trips.
5. Third party networks that offer fast charging are not generally viable without subsidies.
6. Manufacturers like Tesla have every reason to maintain a viable charging network to promote their vehicles. Why should they "outsource" something that is so critical to their business?
7. Manufacturers have sufficient access to capital to achieve efficiencies of scale, i.e., multiple chargers per location, investment in solar/batteries, etc.
8. Instead of manufacturers, governments could take it upon themselves to build charging networks and keep them subsidized. However, would you rather have the DOE build your network, or Tesla? The DOE already gave us the Blink Network...
Unless GM invests in a robust fast charging network, or joins forces with Tesla, the Bolt will be a hard sell compared to the Model 3.
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honestly, physically deploying a fast DC network like Tesla's supercharger network can be done very quickly.
For example, Tesla has a really cool "pallet-based" mobile supercharger (two pumps per pallet). It can be deployed anywhere a supercharger is needed temporarily. Many of you have used them. I've used these mobile Superchargers at Barstow, Hawthorne, and Laguna Seca. I'll post a picture if you like. Honestly, each pallet based mobile supercharger isn't that expensive to build. Probably $10k each.
So, GM (or any other mfg with a 200mi range BEV) could simply build a few hundred of these pallets and deploy them quickly to support their new BEV. If I were GM, I could deploy 100 locations practically overnight when needed. That way you have a network up and running as soon as the car is available. GM could partner with McDonald's for example. I don't like putting them at dealers. Too hard to walk to a restaurant or ATM. Not convenient. But maybe dealers want it. I don't know...
Hopefully you get my point. I'm the biggest tesla fan in the world. I love the car and the company but I don't believe the supercharger network is a huge moat (aka barrier to entry) for mfgs that are really serious about entering the long-range BEV space.
I guess that depends on how one defines 'quickly' and of course how many resources are put on the project. We only have one datapoint of course, but Tesla is two years into the rollout and still a good two years away from a network that most owners [in the US] would consider comprehensive...and lets not forget that Supercharging is integral to the success of Tesla. Could a legacy ICE maker truly execute a project with anywhere near the competency of Tesla, especially considering the relative stakes?
Calvin.K
Member
Chevrolet Bolt EV Animation - YouTube
Chevrolet Bolt Exteriors B-Roll - YouTube
BMW i3 Clone?
Índeed not even close to a mid-size sedan, and certainly not a competitor to the Model 3 ...
Chevrolet Bolt Exteriors B-Roll - YouTube
BMW i3 Clone?
Índeed not even close to a mid-size sedan, and certainly not a competitor to the Model 3 ...
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Adm
Active Member
I am having difficulty reading the size of the car from the photo's and video. Is it closer to the Sonic than the Trax or vv.
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