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I think that some of us missed the sarcasm in your initial post. Not knowing you personally, that message sounded like something someone would post if they didn't know about EVs.It is clear to me and I understand about infrastructure--I have driven 8000 miles away from home in my BEV. It is also clear (maybe mostly clear) that in advertising the Bolt that this is not so clear. Maybe it is just me.
I think that some of us missed the sarcasm in your initial post. Not knowing you personally, that message sounded like something someone would post if they didn't know about EVs.
Having read later your later messages, it's obvious you have plenty of experience with long distance travel in a Tesla.
Honestly, I was not being so sarcastic. More dumbfounded. I was trying (doing my homework before posting) to be a not so knowledgeable person coming to these two cars. But how can you compare these two cars (Bolt and Model 3)? Of course you can, and the Bolt, I hope, will be a fine car for many people. I was disappointed that there was a large limit to the Bolt that was not really talked about. I was hoping there was some way it could be more than a Leaf. It is better, it will make a better commuter car than the Leaf. But that limit (about a 100 miles and then you better get home) is disappointing to me, and makes it not something I could choose.
OF COURSE the Bolt is a commuter car. But that's not a bad thing...
The market for commuter EVs is YUGE! Virtually every suburban 2-car household has one of them that never travels more than 200 miles/day and would never require refueling away from home.
For those who have just one car, an EV may not make sense yet. The discussions here about refueling concerns makes that point clear. In a few years when charging stations are everywhere and charging times shorter, EVs will make sense for more people.
This comes from someone who is a staunch supporter...
We're playing from the same sheet of music. I lump all those activities into the concept of "commuter car".No, a commuter car is a _bad_ thing. But the Bolt is more than a commuter. It's a commuter, errand runner, a friend-visitor and drive-to-a-restauranter (or at least it would be for us). 200 miles (100+100) is 99% of trips and over 80% of household miles.
It is silly to generalize.there is a significant difference between a 200 mile EV and an 80 mile EV.
It is silly to generalize.
One or multiple car family ?
Charging available at work ? How far away ?
Rural or urban lifestyle ?
Children ?
Climate ?
The list goes on ...
My work is 45 miles away, so until they offer at least L1 charging I want a nominal 120 mile range car good for say ... eight years for it to be a perfect commuter car. A 200 mile range commuter is a waste of money. For me.
Chevrolet understood this better than anyone in 2006. I can borrow one of my kids EVs and go anywhere from Central America to the Arctic Circle. Not in the future, it's been possible since late 2010.
Could you explain the reference to 2006?
It is silly to generalize.
One or multiple car family ?
Charging available at work ? How far away ?
Rural or urban lifestyle ?
Children ?
Climate ?
The list goes on ...
My work is 45 miles away, so until they offer at least L1 charging I want a nominal 120 mile range car good for say ... eight years for it to be a perfect commuter car. A 200 mile range commuter is a waste of money. For me.
Could you explain the reference to 2006? I know GM stopped production of the EV-1 in 1999 and began production of the Volt in 2010, but I don't recall what transpired in 2006. Also, I don't follow you when you say you could drive anywhere from Central America to the Artic Circle in your kids EV. A little elaboration would be helpful.
From watching GM's posturing with the Volt & Bolt, it seems apparent to me GM's goal is to just sell automobiles -- they couldn't care less if it's an ICE or EV. That's reflected by their lack of interest in developing or nurturing any kind of charging network (Charged EVs | The Bolt EV is on the way, but GM has no plans to invest in fast charging infrastructure). So, IMHO, unless CHAdeMO, or CCS,or their successor expands rapidly on their own, GM's BEVs will always be commuter-only cars.
I'll input an alternate view to McRat's that may explain why GM was seen as the devil in the EV/plug-in world:A brief history of the Most Hated Electric Car Maker Ever, (or The Company That Would Not Quit):
GM's first BEV was in 1908. Not practical, but they made them, mostly for women. GM never pulled the plug on EV projects. Part of the EV tech was to become the world's first electric starter for cars in 1911. In 1913, 40% of GMC Heavy Truck sales were BEVs. This ended about in WWI. The Great Depression slowed things a bit, as did WWII, but they were still tinkering with them.
In the modern era, 1964 saw GM start to play with the Electrovairs. They had a range up to 80 miles using the batteries found in ICBM's. A bit too pricey. In 1969 came the utility cars, the 512 Urbans. It was even thought that a plutonium battery used in satellites could power one for years without recharging. In the mid 1970's the Electrovette was designed and GM thought that 10% of their car sales would be BEV's by 1980. Failed again.
In the late 1980's GM made the Sunraycer? solar electric car. It won the 1987 endurance race by ... 3 days ahead of second place. Then in 1990, using what they had learned, they displayed the Impact which was slated for production (as the EV1). They took it to Bonneville Salt Flats and went 183 mph back then. Faster than most supercars of the day. So what the hell, try, try, try, again. The EV1 was produced but the only way to make it even remotely feasible was to use lead acid. Then at great cost, the changed to NiMH. It did NOT sell out until heavily discounted on the lease rate, which was a fraction of the costs to begin with. The EV-1 was a financial disaster far bigger than the Ford Edsel, but it was not the first or last bloodbath GM took in the technology world. When the EV1 ended, the research did not. Almost immediately they started thinking outside the box. What they ended up with was the Volt. Which again lost money, and nearly drown.
You seem to believe in conspiracy theories only, and strive to find evil in others. GM is no saint, but nobody has spent the blood, sweat, and tears that GM has trying to get people to buy EVs.
Yes, I know the Starbucks Saved The Whales crowd doesn't want to hear such nonsense. It disrupts all the years of repetitive essays on why GM's true goal is to put a two Canyoneros in every driveway...
GM was actually one of only two automakers that sued CARB over the ZEV mandate (the other was Daimler Chrysler).
GM Takes CARB to Court Over ZEV Mandate : EVWORLD.COM
GM under then-chairman Roger Smith had genuine interest in EVs when the Impact concept was developed and that continued into the EV-1 under John Smith. Then under Rick Wagoner, attention shifted to hydrogen cars and thus came the push to end the ZEV mandate.
Best-Kept Secret in Detroit: The Development of GM's Electric Car
The other unique thing GM did that set back EV development was selling of the Nimh patents to Chevron, which encumbered them. And unlike Honda and Toyota, they didn't have a "green" replacement for EVs, like the Prius or Insight.
There is a century of GM scummery that somehow escaped mcRat's memory. Just quickly off the top of my headI'll input an alternate view to McRat's
Good point. The active GM lobbying to block Tesla from opening stores shows they are still up to their own tricks (and once again they are the only automaker doing so).There is a century of GM scummery that somehow escaped mcRat's memory. Just quickly off the top of my head
Lest I be accused of bias, I'll be the first to admit that VW is at least as despicable.
- The streetcar conspiracy
- A century of industrial pollution that GM has refused to clean up
- A decade of anti-hybrid propaganda
- The ignition switch story and cover-up.
- Abuse of the legal system Vs ZEV
- Political corruption to hobble Tesla direct marketing
There is a century of GM scummery that somehow escaped mcRat's memory. Just quickly off the top of my head
Lest I be accused of bias, I'll be the first to admit that VW is at least as despicable.
- The streetcar conspiracy
- A century of industrial pollution that GM has refused to clean up
- A decade of anti-hybrid propaganda
- The ignition switch story and cover-up.
- Abuse of the legal system Vs ZEV
- Political corruption to hobble Tesla direct marketing
Nothing like a bailout to motivate GM to make a Prius imitation.even bankruptcy did not stop them. Think about that for a second.
Prius imitation? Volt1 is still a better car than the all new Prius Prime.