Chevy Bolt a "Commuter Car?" Not Available Until April? Help!

[PtG62901]

What I think is going to happen, between the Bolt and Model 3? I read this quote - The Bolt is a $20k car, that costs $35k because it is an EV. The Model 3 is a $35k car, that is selling for $35k even though it is an EV.

I think the Bolt is a fine car, that exists because GM needs to meet California fuel hurdles, or they want to be perceived as a tech leader in the EV market. I don't expect the Bolt will be as good a car as the Model 3. It is going to be hard for an ICE company to bet the farm on EV's, and I think that is what it is going to take. But, time will tell.

 

[McRat]

I would disagree with you on this, at least here in California. I know myself and 9 other Tesla owners personally. Only 2 of them have a gas car in addition to their Tesla.

It would be hard to actually get a realistic number on the internet. But pretty much everybody I know with a >$100k car has a harem. 4 or more motor vehicles.

 

[Jeff N]

Maybe some day GM will have a CCS or Chademo network that rivals Tesla's supercharger network. But until then, any other EV is really just a second vehicle.

Few people drive all the way across the country. Rather, they make long distance trips to vacation or visit relatives within maybe a 500 mile or 1,000 mile range.

A Bolt EV driver could drive from San Diego to Vancouver, Canada immediately after picking up their car from a dealer 2 months from now. The section of the trip from Sacramento to Oregon would currently need to rely on 24 kW (62A) charging. However, within the next 2 years an additional 41 DC charging locations in California with 50 kW (125A) will be built with funds already granted including along that northern stretch of I-5. Those new charging locations will also include stubbed-out locations where a 100 kW (200A) can easily be added in the future and the site transformer is already sized to account for it.

Similar DC charging opportunities exist along the east coast today for long-distance driving.

However, the bigger picture you raise is about a nationwide Supercharger-like network for car owners between the coastal areas. These areas of the country, in addition to the coastal areas, are likely to see a major initial DC charging buildout with 100 kW (200A) or better CCS/CHAdeMO for long-distance driving by the end of 2019 with future installations continuing after that.

The buildout will likely be done by VW using $500 million during that timeframe which is probably more than Tesla has spent on the US Superchargers so far. VW has to spend this money on zero emission vehicle charging and while this could include fuel cell H2 charging it can be entirely EV charging. VW gets to choose and VW is not one of the car companies with a major stake in pushing fuel cell cars today. Rather, they are planning to produce large numbers of EVs with long-range big battery cars being delivered within the 2019 timeframe.

Yes, this nationwide DC buildout is my personal speculation. They could spend this money on other zero emission technologies or just on workplace and apartment building level 2 AC charging stations. However, it's hard to imagine them not doing a national DC network given VW's stated near-term EV business plan and the scale of the funds involved.

This investment is mandated under a court-supervised consent decree. They have to do it. The first of four consecutive installments begins in spring of 2017 and ends in late 2019. If they fail to spend all of that money the remainder can be rolled over to the next 2.5 year installment of $500 million but if they haven't spent $1 billion on charging by the summer of 2022 they will face fines. VW picks their own investment plan but it is supervised by EPA and CARB and the kind of costs that can come from the fund is clearly limited and is audited and periodic public reports on progress and upcoming plans are required.

Change (and charging) is coming quickly across the US due to this settlement although it will likely follow a roadmap rather than being equally distributed across the country every year (the same is true of Tesla's charging strategy). Although this work must benefit all EV models using "non-proprietary" plug designs (not just VW) it can (and likely will) dovetail with VW's need for a nationwide high-speed DC charging system since VW gets to choose what and where to install this charging network. I know it's hard for people to wrap their heads around what this settlement means....

I'm actually sitting in the US courtroom where the final settlement hearing is taking place today.

 

[The_Mike]

Change (and charging) is coming quickly across the US due to this settlement although it will likely follow a roadmap rather than being equally distributed across the country every year (the same is true of Tesla's charging strategy). Although this work must benefit all EV models using "non-proprietary" plug designs (not just VW) it can (and likely will) dovetail with VW's need for a nationwide high-speed DC charging system since VW gets to choose what and where to install this charging network. I know it's hard for people to wrap their heads around what this settlement means....

Thank you for that interesting reply. I am very excited about what comes to our infrastructure improvements in the next few years, and more EV charging options can only improve things for society in general.

As someone who is directly effected by VW's duplicity (I'm actually waiting on the buy back on my TDI - paperwork submitted!), this would certainly go a long way to reestablishing their credibility in my eyes.

However, I am very pessimistic about the timeline. Just seeing how long it takes to get ANYTHING moving on the non-Tesla infrastructure here has been disappointing. My wife's Leaf level 3 options map looks very similar today to what it did in 2014 when we picked it up as a starter EV. Level 2 is everywhere, but involves significant enough planning that it will constitute a serious barrier to entry for most normal, non-enthusiast individuals. DC charging is quick enough that people do not have to change their already-established behavior.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think the Bolt and the Volt should have been Buick brand cars. That would allow GM to charge more and it not be as jarring, plus maybe they would have use even more upscale interior.

I don't think Buick is as good a choice. It is not as strong a brand as Cadillac.

Upscaling the interior added ~350lb (10%) to the mass of the Volt when the upfitted the ELR. And added $30k to the sticker for the 2016 (final) year.

But I do agree that they should have not been branded Chevrolet. Opel USA or Buick would be my choices in that order.

The Volt and Bolt should have offered with Sport Editions. The Volt can easily get a power bump by increasing the EV motor output and allowing more series output with the ICE. Volts might be slightly series hybrids, but do not really behave that way in real life. The peak output is same whether both ICE and EV motors are going. It uses to the EV power buffer to augment the ICE output, not enhance peak performance. It is always capped at 120kW. The ELR is not. Using the driveline from the 111kW (2011-15) Volt the ELR produces 174kW in series mode. 50% more power.

But part of performance is weight, and part of the price is materials. It's a balancing act. Deluxe interior, poor performance, higher price.

The #1 complaint I hear about Volts is the price. Driving the price up is not the answer.

The ELR isn't a good example at all. The body style was changed to a coupe and the interior plushed out to a level befitting its price tag (lowest was $65k in last year). What GM could have done was just outfit it like ATS (which starts at $35k). I doubt that would add significant cost (likely less than $1000) or weight (likely less than 100 lbs).

 

[diamond.g]

I don't think Buick is as good a choice. It is not as strong a brand as Cadillac.


The ELR isn't a good example at all. The body style was changed to a coupe and the interior plushed out to a level befitting its price tag (lowest was $65k in last year). What GM could have done was just outfit it like ATS (which starts at $35k). I doubt that would add significant cost (likely less than $1000) or weight (likely less than 100 lbs).

But isn't Caddy the luxury performance brand? the Volt (nor the Bolt) scream performance (in current incarnations).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes, this nationwide DC buildout is my personal speculation. They could spend this money on other zero emission technologies or just on workplace and apartment building level 2 AC charging stations. However, it's hard to imagine them not doing a national DC network given VW's stated near-term EV business plan and the scale of the funds involved.

Previous similar projects had level 2 AC stations receiving a bulk of the funding. And the advantage of funding level 2 AC is that it can be directed to more closely target their own customers (for example given free charging station installations for VW EV owners).

And from the way automakers have done it so far, even for DC, it will be lower power (24kW or 50kW) chargers installed at dealerships. From CHAdeMO, we already know this does not work to build a viable long distance network. The USA CHAdeMO network has as many if not more chargers than the supercharger network, and the amount of investment is likely even more than Tesla invested in the supercharger network. However, the CHAdeMO network is still a long way from matching the supercharger network for long distance trips.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But isn't Caddy the luxury performance brand? the Volt (nor the Bolt) scream performance (in current incarnations).

I suppose there would be push back from the Cadillac brand in terms of diluting the brand, but the approach would be similar to what BMW did with the i3 (except without all the carbon fiber stuff adding a boatload of extra costs). My comment was just that Buick is a very weak brand (barely even able to carry itself), so I'm not sure if it would help.

 

[30seconds]

The buildout will likely be done by VW using $500 million during that timeframe which is probably more than Tesla has spent on the US Superchargers so far. VW has to spend this money on zero emission vehicle charging and while this could include fuel cell H2 charging it can be entirely EV charging. VW gets to choose and VW is not one of the car companies with a major stake in pushing fuel cell cars today. Rather, they are planning to produce large numbers of EVs with long-range big battery cars being delivered within the 2019 timeframe.

Yes, this nationwide DC buildout is my personal speculation. They could spend this money on other zero emission technologies or just on workplace and apartment building level 2 AC charging stations. However, it's hard to imagine them not doing a national DC network given VW's stated near-term EV business plan and the scale of the funds involved.

This investment is mandated under a court-supervised consent decree. They have to do it. The first of four consecutive installments begins in spring of 2017 and ends in late 2019. If they fail to spend all of that money the remainder can be rolled over to the next 2.5 year installment of $500 million but if they haven't spent $1 billion on charging by the summer of 2022 they will face fines. VW picks their own investment plan but it is supervised by EPA and CARB and the kind of costs that can come from the fund is clearly limited and is audited and periodic public reports on progress and upcoming plans are required.

I fully expect VW to examine every single word in the consent decree and come up with a way to spend the money that benefits VW first and every one else second. For example they can invest in hydrogen expansion for the first year or two other non-EV spends until their product line is more mature.

 

[McRat]

But isn't Caddy the luxury performance brand? the Volt (nor the Bolt) scream performance (in current incarnations).

Cadillac puts their badges on everything from 4 cyl cars to the beastly 200mph CTS-V luxury 4-door sedan, and everywhere in between.

And Surprise... Most Caddy dealers do not even know a version of the CT6 (luxury yacht) is coming with the Voltec mated to a turbo I4. If people thought a $75k ELR was priced into the Stupidsphere, wait for the $80k CT6 EREV all the fixings coming in a few months.

BTW - A Volt is actually fairly competent around an AutoX course, especially after a tire swap and turning off the babysitter. Several folk followed us into the pits wondering what they just saw. Silent Killer. I imagine the Bolt will smoke the Volt though. The CTS-V we brought also was a riot, but not a lot faster than the Volt.

 

[Jeff N]

Previous similar projects had level 2 AC stations receiving a bulk of the funding. And the advantage of funding level 2 AC is that it can be directed to more closely target their own customers (for example given free charging station installations for VW EV owners).

The charging infrastructure they build through this funding must be brand-neutral and cannot be tied in any way to VW-specific customers. They can, of course, do this with money outside of the settlement funds.

And from the way automakers have done it so far, even for DC, it will be lower power (24kW or 50kW) chargers installed at dealerships.

They cannot do that. Section II 2.1 (national ZEV plan) and section III 3.2 (CA ZEV plan) state:

costs incurred in connection with ZEV charging infrastructure installed at or adjacent to Settling Defendants’ dealerships shall not constitute Creditable Costs.

 

[gene]

It would be hard to actually get a realistic number on the internet. But pretty much everybody I know with a >$100k car has a harem. 4 or more motor vehicles.

Speaking only of the bunch of Model S owners I know. Few at all were over $100K and none of them have a a "harem" of vehicles. As I mentioned before, all but 2 have a Model S as their only car. My Model S is my only car. Going back to your original statement eluding that even Tesla owners must have a gas car for certain trips. I have not seen that to be the case at all. Few areas of the country cannot be reached at this time with a Tesla and the roll out of Superchargers is still progressing with no end in sight.

 

[McRat]

I fully expect VW to examine every single word in the consent decree and come up with a way to spend the money that benefits VW first and every one else second. For example they can invest in hydrogen expansion for the first year or two other non-EV spends until their product line is more mature.

Ah... I think you don't understand the problem that the ZEV's face in the market. There is no market. Building out H2 benefits Toyota, the #1 company, who outsells VW solidly in the US.

For VW to flip ZEV's in the US for credits, they need a market for ZEV's to exist first. So I predict that given the choice, they will do EV infrastructure to reduce Toyota's ZEV credits.

 

[Jeff N]

I fully expect VW to examine every single word in the consent decree and come up with a way to spend the money that benefits VW first and every one else second. For example they can invest in hydrogen expansion for the first year or two other non-EV spends until their product line is more mature.

They could do that, but VW doesn't have H2 customers who would benefit from that (why help Toyota?) while they do already have e-Golf customers with CCS who would benefit from EV charging expansion. Also, they would want to buildout a competitive national DC network before delivering big battery cars so they can market their future car's charging competitiveness right away and building a large network takes time. They need to start right now.

the $80k CT6 EREV

Actually, the CT6 plugin is not an EREV. It is a PHEV because Cadillac chose to size the engine substantially more powerful than the battery and electric motors and they want to make that blended power available to the driver by default.

 

[McRat]

Actually, the CT6 plugin is not an EREV. It is a PHEV because Cadillac chose to size the engine substantially more powerful than the battery and electric motors and they want to make that blended power available to the driver by default.

Interesting. I was reading it will go 37 miles on EV power without the ICE.

Guess we will see. The Caddy dealers I've spoken with barely even know about the ICE CT6's they have on their lots.

 

[Saghost]

Interesting. I was reading it will go 37 miles on EV power without the ICE.

Guess we will see. The Caddy dealers I've spoken with barely even know about the ICE CT6's they have on their lots.

I'm pretty sure it'll happily do that - as long as the driver never pushes past about halfway on the accelerator. Jeff's point was about programming - I think the CT6 will be set up to turn the engine on at any time if floored.

 

[McRat]

Wifey wants the CT6. and I'm trying to talk her into the PHEV. If it's a freakin' slug, she is probably going to get the ICE twin turbo. She likes the Volts, hence why she's waiting for the CT6 PHEV.

 

[Jeff N]

Previous similar projects had level 2 AC stations receiving a bulk of the funding. And the advantage of funding level 2 AC is that it can be directed to more closely target their own customers (for example given free charging station installations for VW EV owners).

I'll have to check this carefully, but right now I don't think the funds can be used at all for individual customer EVSEs. It can only be used for "multi-unit dwellings, workplaces, and public sites".

 

[30seconds]

They could do that, but VW doesn't have H2 customers who would benefit from that (why help Toyota?) while they do already have e-Golf customers with CCS who would benefit from EV charging expansion. Also, they would want to buildout a competitive national DC network before delivering big battery cars so they can market their future car's charging competitiveness right away and building a large network takes time. They need to start right now.


Actually, the CT6 plugin is not an EREV. It is a PHEV because Cadillac chose to size the engine substantially more powerful than the battery and electric motors and they want to make that blended power available to the driver by default.

Pretty sure that the incremental Mirage sales would be negligible to Toyota. However building a world class EV charging infrastructure without a significant set of cars to sell will directly benefit Tesla, GM, Nissan, BMW, etc.

I do hope I am wrong however

 

[Jeff N]

Pretty sure that the incremental Mirage sales would be negligible to Toyota. However building a world class EV charging infrastructure without a significant set of cars to sell will directly benefit Tesla, GM, Nissan, BMW, etc.

I do hope I am wrong however

Audi (part of VW) is releasing an all battery e-tron crossover vehicle in 2018 with an estimated 310 miles of range on NEDC (probably 220-250 miles EPA). They will probably release a couple of other long-range EVs by 2020. They will want a national DC charging network to help them market that Audi model in 2018.