Chevy Bolt is Ugly, Model 3 Still Poised to outsell if Attractively Designed

[David99]

I like the look of the Bolt. Design is always a matter of personal taste. People that don't like a certain brand will consider all their products ugly and inferior. What bothers me a little sometimes about Tesla fans is their dislike for any other EVs. Nothing can pissibly live up to the Model S standard. In way that is true as the Model S is a heck of a car and EV and has no match. But once the Bolt and Nissan Leaf with 200 miles range is out for a very competitive price, things looks very different. At the moment Tesla has pretty much no competition. They have the best EV. It comes at a crazy price, but nevertheless, it is the best. The Model 3 will have have actual real competition and might even be beat in some features or price. That's where it gets interesting. And that's exactly what we need!

 

[RobStark]

Looks better than that freak Toyota Murai. Just sayin.

So it is not the ugliest chick in the club.

So what will be chevy's plan to incentivize its dealers to sell 'em? Limited production #s will help solve that problem, I guess.

They should do what the always do when the want to really move metal and offer salespeople a spiff.

And top salesperson in the region gets a trip for two to Hawaii.

A study in Connecticut showed a State spiff to salespeople of $500 per vehicle would be more effective than a $2500 rebate to consumers in selling BEVs.

 

[Jeff N]

Even at the same price these [Model 3 and Bolt] will not be competitors because people who buy one if them would rarely consider the other as an alternative.

I plan to lease a Bolt for 3 years to give Tesla time to miss their schedule, integrate Mobileye's forthcoming 6 camera automated driving system hardware, shake out the bugs, and roll out an updated 300+ mile battery pack at a good price. At that point I'll buy a Model 3 and turn in my Bolt. I figure the initial Model 3 early adopter market will be saturated by that point and Tesla will be wanting some help with a second wave of buyers as they drive up volume production at the GF.

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

THIS:

We just bought a used Volt to replace my wife's Mazda 3 (192K miles) in order to bridge to the M3. I like the Volt and like buying through Carvana even better. I would like the Bolt to be successful just because Tesla cannot do everything itself but here are the problems I see:
1. Dealers. They are not likely to order the Bolt in sufficient numbers, train salesmen and service techs because they can direct the consumer to nearly identical performing ICE cars that are less expensive. They also make more money on maintenance.
2. 30K production. This is only a toe in the water approach. I have also seen a quote that indicates that it is expected to help sales in certain states, indicating compliance vehicle.
3. Battery availability for additional sales. This has been thoroughly discussed. Volt and Bolt cannot both be big successes within LG's battery capacity. Apparently GM will order from LG only after seeing the market, likely delaying additional production.
4. Will the Bolt cannabilize the Volt or vice versa?
5. No fast charging network.

I think the Bolt is unlikely to be very successful simply because it doesn't apprear to compete well against similar ICE even in GM's own lineup. In order to push BEV the products need to be better than similar ICE vehicles especially with low gas prices

I found myself in a situation once with my Volt where I thought I'd get use out of charging at a Chevrolet dealership... what ensued was a moment where I realized just how far ahead of the competition and how forward thinking Tesla is. I HAD TO WAIT IN LINE AT THE SERVICE CENTER TO FILL OUT PAPERWORK TO CHARGE MY CAR... at drop off AND PICKUP. It took me 35 minutes to do what at a Tesla store or supercharger would have taken me 10 seconds.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I think the Bolt looks pretty good. It doesn't look *great* but it doesn't need to. (Looks a bit like the Honda Civic hatchback, IMO.) I don't at all understand the comparisons to the Leaf and i3 - those cars are simply ugly.

I'd buy a Model 3 if it looked like the Bolt. I might not buy the Model 3 if it looks great, with a low sloping roofline, at the cost of interior space.

 

[ecarfan]

I like the look of the Bolt. Design is always a matter of personal taste. People that don't like a certain brand will consider all their products ugly and inferior. What bothers me a little sometimes about Tesla fans is their dislike for any other EVs. Nothing can pissibly live up to the Model S standard. In way that is true as the Model S is a heck of a car and EV and has no match.

So you generalize that all Tesla fans dislike all other EVs (which of course is not true as evidenced by the posts on TMC and in this thread) but then admit that the Model S "has no match".
Of course aesthetic taste in car design is subjective. But believe me, many Tesla fans are cheering on the EV competition. If they criticize it as well it's because they want it to catch up to Tesla, as that will help Tesla achieve its goal, which is not to become the biggest car company in the world but is to accelerate the advent of sustainable transportation. Tesla cannot do that by itself, it needs every car manufacturer to start building quality EVs that are more compelling than their ICE cars.
The Bolt is a start in that direction, but it's still got a ways to go. Yes, it may be a useful EV for many people but it is still priced much higher than a comparable sub-compact hatchback (high $30's before incentives which won't last forever), and there is no useful long distance charging network for it. So while I applaud GM for trying, GM isn't there yet when it comes to price point and long distance EV travel.
In contrast, the Model S is simply a better car in every important way compared to similarly priced full size luxury sedans in its class. The X is literally in a class of its own.
If the upcoming Model 3 meets its $35K price point (before any incentives) and has Supercharging available for a few thousand more it will be a superior car to a base BMW 3 series and it will sell like crazy. At this point, that is an "if". We don't know yet. It really depends on what features the 3 comes with as standard and how pricey the various options are and how the Supercharging cost will be handled (one time cost like the S/X or cost per charge? Either way could work well).
I hope the Bolt is a success and I hope GM gets off its ass and creates a truly useful high speed DC charging network! But I would bet money GM will not do that any time soon. The company lacks the drive and vision to do so.

 

[jkk_]

I think the Bolt looks pretty good. It doesn't look *great* but it doesn't need to. (Looks a bit like the Honda Civic hatchback, IMO.) I don't at all understand the comparisons to the Leaf and i3 - those cars are simply ugly.

I'd buy a Model 3 if it looked like the Bolt. I might not buy the Model 3 if it looks great, with a low sloping roofline, at the cost of interior space.

I don't think the Bolt is ugly. I can see it being attractive (using this word loosely here) to the "I care about cars only for moving from A to B" but I can't see myself driving car looking like that. So while I agree with your second point I'm going to have to disagree with your first point.

 

[TexasEV]

You show up at Chevy dealer, and you not the prices of their other cars, and Bolt is towards the higher end.

More likely you show up at the Chevy dealer and they say "why would you want that? Let me show you the..." or "I don't know when we'll be able to get one in the color you want" or " the only one we have has all these options on it and $500 undercoating and $150 pinstriping, and fabric protection, oh and another $500 ADM (that's additional dealer markup)".

 

[electracity]

Tesla will run into many of the same design constraints when they do the model Y. A lot of interior space can be carved out of a small EV, but it ends up as a box shape. Chevy has the Volt for sloped and sporty, and the Bolt for "surprisingly roomie".

The M3 should be a better looking vehicle, as its position is sporty, not roomie. Poor Volt sales, especially in Europe, probably pushed Chevy to try roomie with the Bolt.

I think what Barra was doing in part with her mild Tesla bashing during the Bolt presentation was talking to dealers and the trade press. Chevy dealers now have two nice, complimentary battery vehicles to sell. She likely is concerned about the dealers looking forward and getting competitive with new EV companies like Tesla. Dealers of American cars haven't felt the Tesla pressure like the Euro luxury dealerships. But she likely now wants her dealers to feel more concern before the M3 release.

 

[igotzzoom]

The styling of the Bolt is functional. I neither love it, nor loathe it. It's respectably attractive for its utilitarian mission. I've rarely bought cars on the basis of aesthetics. One exception might be my '11 Sonata. However, my main reason for purchase was interior room, fuel economy (which has turned out to be a bit of a mixed bag) and performance. I actually do think there might be some cross-shopping between the base-model Model 3 and the Bolt, purely on the basis of them both being long-range EVs in the same price range. But generally-speaking, I think they will appeal to different buyers. I've seen the Bolt, and am interested. I'm interested in seeing the production-intent Model 3. Since the Bolt likely won't be in showrooms until early CY '17, I'll still have ample time to be fickle and change my mind. :smile:

 

[ebwb]

I don't think dealers will be an issue where Volt sells well (i.e., California). When my father leased his Volt in LA, dealers were stocked with them and the employees were generally knowledgable about the car. We ended up getting one from a San Fernando Valley dealer which had the lowest prices. They delivered the car to my dad's workplace in the South Bay (40 miles from the SFV); it was the easiest car buying experience ever.

Hope GM offers the "Drive My Way" test drive for Bolt. I did it last weekend and drove a Volt for 45 minutes without any pressure from a salesperson: Volt Test Drives Delivered To Your Door

As for Model 3 and Bolt, they're different types of cars, even if both are powered by electricity. If Volt and Spark EV are any indication, Bolt will come well-equipped and have minimal extra-cost options (just DCFC and safety assist systems, I'm guessing). Model 3 may start at $35K, but I can see a performance model costing twice that amount. As a reference, the BMW 3-series starts at $34,195 (320i with manual seats, leatherette, halogen headlights, no reversing camera) and goes to $87,750 (M3 with all the options ticked).

If we go by history, the handful of Model 3s delivered December 2017 will be loaded Signature cars. I wouldn't be surprised if average transaction prices on Model 3 will be around $50K.

 

[RobStark]

As for Model 3 and Bolt, they're different types of cars, even if both are powered by electricity. If Volt and Spark EV are any indication, Bolt will come well-equipped and have minimal extra-cost options (just DCFC and safety assist systems, I'm guessing).

A $37.5k Bolt will not come much more well equipped than a $37.5k Model 3.

What ever you do the Bolt will not come with access to a nationwide 120 kWh fast charging Network.

A $34k 2016 Volt has a potential of about $10k in options.

I am pretty sure the Bolt will be no different.

I am sure there will be a $70k plus Model 3.

The difference between it and the Bolt will be akin to the difference between a Honda Fit and a loaded BMW M3.

If you are looking to at a ~38k Bolt a much better buy that will fill all those needs plus more is a ~$38k Model 3.

 

[ebwb]

A $37.5k Bolt will not come much more well equipped than a $37.5k Model 3.

What ever you do the Bolt will not come with access to a nationwide 120 kWh fast charging Network.

A $34k 2016 Volt has a potential of about $10k in options.

I am pretty sure the Bolt will be no different.

I am sure there will be a $70k plus Model 3.

The difference between it and the Bolt will be akin to the difference between a Honda Fit and a loaded BMW M3.

If you are looking to at a ~38k Bolt a much better buy that will fill all those needs plus more is a ~$38k Model 3.

2016 Volt LT is $33,995. A loaded Volt Premier with every option (excluding port-installed options) is $39,830. The difference is $5,835, or about 17% more.

When base Model 3s deliver in late-2018, and assuming Tesla can meet their target of $35,000, then Bolt will obviously drop in pricing. By then, a good 50,000+ Bolts will likely be sold, and their investment costs have been recouped, etc. Few people will buy a Bolt if for the same money they could get a similarly-equipped Model 3; the Tesla brand has so much more cachet than Chevrolet.

 

[Twiglett]

2016 Volt LT is $33,995. A loaded Volt Premier with every option (excluding port-installed options) is $39,830. The difference is $5,835, or about 17% more.

When base Model 3s deliver in late-2018, and assuming Tesla can meet their target of $35,000, then Bolt will obviously drop in pricing. By then, a good 50,000+ Bolts will likely be sold, and their investment costs have been recouped, etc. Few people will buy a Bolt if for the same money they could get a similarly-equipped Model 3; the Tesla brand has so much more cachet than Chevrolet.

Or put another way.
The Bolt is the EV equivalent to the Sonic
The Model 3 is supposed to be the EV equivalent to the BMW 3-series
On that basis they are two different target markets - the fact that it starts at the same price point is scary.
I would suspect that the top of the range Tesla Model 3 to be about the same as a BMW M3, hardly Chevy Bolt territory, but hardly the same market either.

 

[scottf200]

Or put another way.
The Bolt is the EV equivalent to the Sonic
The Model 3 is supposed to be the EV equivalent to the BMW 3-series
On that basis they are two different target markets - the fact that it starts at the same price point is scary.
I would suspect that the top of the range Tesla Model 3 to be about the same as a BMW M3, hardly Chevy Bolt territory, but hardly the same market either.

Will that Model 3 (BMW M3) price point and comparison get them to 350,000 sales per YEAR?!?

BMW 3-Series Sales Figures - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

Tesla Motors Inc.'s Model 3 Ambitions May Be More Realistic Than You Think -- The Motley Fool

 

[RobStark]

2016 Volt LT is $33,995. A loaded Volt Premier with every option (excluding port-installed options) is $39,830. The difference is $5,835, or about 17% more.

INCORRECT.

A 2016 Volt with all options checked is $44,345

http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-elect...Zmxtb2tSb2dNQUFBPT0iLCJ0YWIiOiJTVU1NQVJZIn0=@

When base Model 3s deliver in late-2018, and assuming Tesla can meet their target of $35,000, then Bolt will obviously drop in pricing. By then, a good 50,000+ Bolts will likely be sold, and their investment costs have been recouped, etc. Few people will buy a Bolt if for the same money they could get a similarly-equipped Model 3; the Tesla brand has so much more cachet than Chevrolet.

Tesla will deliver the first dozen Model 3s in December 2017 and start ramp up in Q1 2018.

IF you think 50k Bolts recoups the sunk GM investment in the Bolt program you don't know very much about automotive industry economics. The Volt program has not reached break even yet.


When Tesla delivers Model 3 en mass then Chevy dealers will slash prices on Bolt to move the metal a la Cadillac dealers and ELR.

 

[nwdiver]

Will that Model 3 (BMW M3) price point and comparison get them to 350,000 sales per YEAR?!?

IMO the 'secret weapon' to high M3 sales will be its incredible broad demographic appeal. It's not just the 3-series market. Many Prius owners will want one. Corvette owners will want one. BMW owners will want one.

This is how the model S destroys its peers... I expect the Model 3 to do much better. You can run ICE.... but you can't hide...

 

[ebwb]

INCORRECT.

A 2016 Volt with all options checked is $44,345

http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-elect...Zmxtb2tSb2dNQUFBPT0iLCJ0YWIiOiJTVU1NQVJZIn0=@






Tesla will deliver the first dozen Model 3s in December 2017 and start ramp up in Q1 2018.

IF you think 50k Bolts recoups the sunk GM investment in the Bolt program you don't know very much about automotive industry economics. The Volt program has not reached break even yet.


When Tesla delivers Model 3 en mass then Chevy dealers will slash prices on Bolt to move the metal a la Cadillac dealers and ELR.

Lol, calm down with the caps. You've included dealer and port-installed accessories, such as all-weather mats, accessory wheels, and a car cover. I forgot about the Siren Red option of $395. Still, a Volt Premier with all factory options is $40,225. The difference is $6,230. I do not expect the same price differential with Bolt and do not anticipate it having a "Premier" trim.

I meant to write "begin to recoup some of their investment costs." Regardless, it's a substantial lead time, and enough for GM to start reducing prices. Costs will go down through economies of scale. GM reduced the MSRP of the first generation Volt by $5,000 within its product cycle. I can imagine GM doing the same if or when Tesla starts selling $35,000 Model 3s.

We're all speculating here (obviously), but the average transaction price will be much higher for Model 3 than Bolt.

 

[RobStark]

IMO the 'secret weapon' to high M3 sales will be its incredible broad demographic appeal. It's not just the 3-series market. Many Prius owners will want one. Corvette owners will want one. BMW owners will want one.

This is how the model S destroys its peers..

On the one hand it true that Tesla has a broader appeal but on the other hand Tesla does not have a plethora of options to splinter its sales.

There are some people that prefer a formal sedan like the S-Class,7 Series and A8 while others prefer a 4 door coupe like Mercedes CLS, BMW 6 Series Gran Coupe and Audi A7. Others might prefer a slightly smaller car like E Class, 5 Series, A6. Or even compact like C Class, 3 Series or A4.

But all Tesla buyers so far get pushed into the Model S because there is no other choice.

As time goes on some people who bought or would have bought a Model S will buy Model 3 or Model Y. Or even Model X.

At the same time as Tesla matures,the Supercharger Network grows, and more people become confident Tesla is not going bankrupt and out of business any time soon a greater percentage of the market will seriously consider Tesla.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol, calm down with the caps. You've included dealer and port-installed accessories, such as all-weather mats, accessory wheels, and a car cover. I forgot about the Siren Red option of $395. Still, a Volt Premier with all factory options is $40,225. The difference is $6,230. I do not expect the same price differential with Bolt and do not anticipate it having a "Premier" trim.

I meant to write "begin to recoup some of their investment costs." Regardless, it's a substantial lead time, and enough for GM to start reducing prices. Costs will go down through economies of scale. GM reduced the MSRP of the first generation Volt by $5,000 within its product cycle. I can imagine GM doing the same if or when Tesla starts selling $35,000 Model 3s.

We're all speculating here (obviously), but the average transaction price will be much higher for Model 3 than Bolt.

One word in caps for emphasis does not mean I am not calm.

All those options are not after market dealer options which is what is usually referred to as port installed options. They are GM options.

Everybody is reducing cost as time goes by and everybody can reduce cost with economies of scale.

And no one will do so more than Tesla.

Is GM going to have greater battery economies of scale than Tesla?

Is GM glider cost going to come down because they now sell 10.03M vehicles instead of 10M per year?

Or is Tesla reaping greater economies of scale in their glider production going from 50k units per year to 500k units buying glass,seats,tires, trim etc?

I fully expect Bolt to offer a Premier with options. Other wise you are leaving easy profits on the table. Nobody does that. There is always a percentage of the market that always wants more. That is why GM sells $70k pickups.

I don't foresee GM reducing cost $5k more than Tesla between Bolt launch and Tesla's launch of Model 3.

It appears LG Chem is already giving GM loss leader prices on batteries in order to secure orders for all the other high value electronics in the Bolt.

 

[McHoffa]

Will that Model 3 (BMW M3) price point and comparison get them to 350,000 sales per YEAR?!?

As someone else pointed out, the Model S destroys the other car it competes with in its segment. I am set to be able to get a Model S at the end of this year. But, unless they unveil a revamped design with better range and specs, I'll just be (im)patient and get two M3's. Aside from the MS, I would NEVER consider a $80k car. I'd never buy a 7 series or S class. In fact, I'd probably never buy a 3 series. I'm totally content with lower end gas guzzlers as I don't really like driving THAT much. I think I'm not alone.

Now with a M3, you'll probably have people that would have never considered a $35k car. I'm ready to buy two of them, unless Tesla does something to convince me that a Model S is really worth twice as much. The Bolt isn't much different than my pitiful little Honda Fit, but costs twice as much. It's definitely not a $40k car, even if it had supercharger access. It's better than other cheap EVs, but I bet Tesla is going to blow it out of the water in March.