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Chuck Schumer: A Bold Plan for Clean Cars

mspohr

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2014
10,064
12,646
California
Opinion | Chuck Schumer: A Bold Plan for Clean Cars

That’s why I am announcing a new proposal designed to rapidly phase out gas-powered vehicles and replace them with zero-emission, or “clean,” vehicles like electric cars. The goal of the plan, which also aims to spur a transformation in American manufacturing, is that by 2040 all vehicles on the road should be clean.

What distinguishes this proposal is not only its scale but also its ability to unite the American environmental movement, the American labor movement and large automakers. It has already earned the support of climate groups like the Sierra Club, the Natural Resources Defense Council and the League of Conservation Voters; labor unions like the United Automobile Workers and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers; and car manufacturers like Ford and General Motors.

How would the plan work? First, it would give you a large discount on an American-made electric vehicle when you trade in a gas-powered car. Lower-income Americans could get an even bigger discount on a new vehicle or a discount on a used electric vehicle. In total, these discounts should result in 63 million fewer gas-powered cars on the road by 2030 and put America on a path to having 100 percent of new car sales be clean.
 

cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,246
4,409
Central Valley
1. If the Democrats regain control of the Senate. Right now this appears to be a long shot.

2. Given #1, the Democrats must be in the White House. Not sure at this point if this is a foregone conclusion. There would not be enough votes to override a presidential veto.

3. You can bet your HPWC that the Koch Bros., extractive industries, and all tangentially-related businesses will pour several gazillion dollars into all politicians' war chests to defeat this measure. The conservative think-tanks and perhaps even many reactionary local churches will be against this measure, as they will don their Chicken Little suits to tell us that America will collapse with this concept.

4. Even if this legislative idea were to gain traction, it is likely that the final version will be watered-down in order to pass. Either the date will be extended, or a compromise on the percentage of electric vehicles as opposed to ICE, or exemptions permitted. No drastic legislation ever gets passed as originally conceived.

5. He does not say how this proposed bill will be funded, unless the money now going to subsidize the petroleum companies will be redirected. (Or maybe, the funds will be taken from the wall at our southern border? :D)

I admire and appreciate Sen. Schumer's initiative. But getting so many diverse interests outside the supporters of this legislation on board with their parochial interests at heart will be a monumental undertaking. Let's face it: There is still a large segment of our population who yearn for the days of yesteryear and fear any sort of change.

Thanks for posting this link!
 

Billyk24

Member
Jan 25, 2019
251
197
16001
Large(r) discounts? As in financial aid to go to your school of higher education? Or more for the more expensive electric vehicle? Or more for the the vehicle with a longer range? Or tax rebates? Who/what defines lower income Americans and how in the heck are they going to pay for an electric vehicle that cost more than other propulsive vehicles? To illegals as many politicians do not respect existing laws? Is paying for a new electric vehicle cost effective compared to a PHEV which cost less? Or...? Who says electric is better than hydrogen in the future? Or something else your favorite politician can not see?
 
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tomas

Out of warranty...
Supporting Member
Oct 22, 2012
4,314
4,206
Santa Barbara/New York
Large(r) discounts? As in financial aid to go to your school of higher education? Or more for the more expensive electric vehicle? Or more for the the vehicle with a longer range? Or tax rebates? Who/what defines lower income Americans and how in the heck are they going to pay for an electric vehicle that cost more than other propulsive vehicles? To illegals as many politicians do not respect existing laws? Is paying for a new electric vehicle cost effective compared to a PHEV which cost less? Or...? Who says electric is better than hydrogen in the future? Or something else your favorite politician can not see?
Ok so rather than sort out those things, let’s do nothing?!?!
 

Billyk24

Member
Jan 25, 2019
251
197
16001
OK. What’s your proposal?
Anything but what a politician states. Bring to the market a different form (non-lithium ion) of vehicle propulsion batteries. Offer a variety of clean(er) propulsion drive systems including the clean burning natural gas buses and heavy vehicles found in this part of the country. Let the market dictate winners and not the politicians picking winners and restricting choices. By the way, one of the Koch brothers has a home across the street from mine and I live in a working class neighborhood with homes dating from the 1920s.
 

tomas

Out of warranty...
Supporting Member
Oct 22, 2012
4,314
4,206
Santa Barbara/New York
OK. What’s your proposal?
Anything but what a politician states. Bring to the market a different form (non-lithium ion) of vehicle propulsion batteries. Offer a variety of clean(er) propulsion drive systems including the clean burning natural gas buses and heavy vehicles found in this part of the country. Let the market dictate winners and not the politicians picking winners and restricting choices. By the way, one of the Koch brothers has a home across the street from mine and I live in a working class neighborhood with homes dating from the 1920s.
What’s your problem with lithium ion?
 

mspohr

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2014
10,064
12,646
California
OK. What’s your proposal?
Anything but what a politician states. Bring to the market a different form (non-lithium ion) of vehicle propulsion batteries. Offer a variety of clean(er) propulsion drive systems including the clean burning natural gas buses and heavy vehicles found in this part of the country. Let the market dictate winners and not the politicians picking winners and restricting choices. By the way, one of the Koch brothers has a home across the street from mine and I live in a working class neighborhood with homes dating from the 1920s.
The market is currently destroying the environment. It is the problem, not the solution. We need political leadership, not crony capitalism.
Natural gas is worse than coal because of methane emissions.
 
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tomas

Out of warranty...
Supporting Member
Oct 22, 2012
4,314
4,206
Santa Barbara/New York
OK. What’s your proposal?
Anything but what a politician states. Bring to the market a different form (non-lithium ion) of vehicle propulsion batteries. Offer a variety of clean(er) propulsion drive systems including the clean burning natural gas buses and heavy vehicles found in this part of the country. Let the market dictate winners and not the politicians picking winners and restricting choices. By the way, one of the Koch brothers has a home across the street from mine and I live in a working class neighborhood with homes dating from the 1920s.
PS, fine. Pull ALL of the coal, oil, and gas subsidies to level the playing field and open up choice. A hundred plus years of huge subsidy grew and protected petroleum and restricted choices. Let’s get rid of that and let the free market determine winners and losers.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,920
8,615
Maine
Let the market dictate winners...

*Sigh*

The market is very good at improving the things upon which people base their decisions.

The market does nothing directly to improve things upon which people do not base their purchasing decisions. In fact, it often makes those things worse, as we see with pollution.

A free market does both great good and great harm.

One of the most important roles of government is to stop the market doing great harm.
 
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Billyk24

Member
Jan 25, 2019
251
197
16001
Mostly physics and math... Hmm. A hydrogen fueled vehicle uses electric motors/propulsive system. Hydrogen’s superior energy-to-weight ratio over a lithium-ion battery lends itself to longer trips. Refueling a hydrogen vehicle does not require 30 minutes, more like three! Infrastructure is a major issue along with cost which sounds familiar to the early EV adapters a decade ago. China's father of electric vehicles has turned his attention to hydrogen fuel cell propulsive vehicles: Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
 

Billyk24

Member
Jan 25, 2019
251
197
16001
One of the most important roles of government is to stop the market doing great harm.----good grief. Those part time elected federal employees are all about looking good in front of the camera.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,920
8,615
Maine
Point your outburst towards China. Why Is China Placing A Global Bet On Coal? China’s power industry calls for hundreds of new coal power plants by 2030 New coal plants rising in China despite Beijing's big climate pledges - CNN

Going to march on the Chinese governmental offices demanding a tear down of their 1000+ coal plants?

Watch the capacity factors, not the capacity.

The cheapest sources by levelized cost are already solar and wind and their prices haven't stopped falling.
Of course, levelized cost isn't everything, and lack of dispatchability of wind and solar is a cost problem.

But batteries haven't really become cheap and abundant yet. Despite that, batteries are already being deployed all over the grid, from generation to end consumer. Battery costs are expected to halve by 2024, and manufacturing capacity is expanding rapidly.

Add in the growing batteries capacity from BEVs and PHEVs and you'll have a massive demand sink that smooths out demand, or follows production as required, as well as providing an option for V2G (although I don't see that happening that much, because as batteries become cheaper, the easier option is having dedicated storage).
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,920
8,615
Maine
I'm really not a fan of cash-for-clunkers schemes, or income-based targeting.

The aim should not be to encourage replacement. It should be to make replacement more efficient.

The aim is to transition the market, and the market naturally introduces technology top down, so income restrictions work against the market too much.

If there are subsidies (or taxes), they should either be declining adjustments for cost premiums, or permanent adjustments for externalities.
 

ajdelange

Active Member
Dec 10, 2018
1,077
638
Virginia/Quebec
Mostly physics and math... Hmm. A hydrogen fueled vehicle uses electric motors/propulsive system. Hydrogen’s superior energy-to-weight ratio over a lithium-ion battery lends itself to longer trips. Refueling a hydrogen vehicle does not require 30 minutes, more like three! Infrastructure is a major issue along with cost which sounds familiar to the early EV adapters a decade ago. China's father of electric vehicles has turned his attention to hydrogen fuel cell propulsive vehicles: Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

"We will sort out the factors that have been hindering the development of fuel-cell vehicles,” Wan said." That's the quote that should have been cited. It's actually physics, chemistry, math and economics that are holding hydrogen back. When new physics, chemistry, math and economics come along that make hydrogen feasible we may see it and I'm guessing that we may someday starting in industrial settings (e.g. as a means of storage at renewable energy sites - who cares if it's inefficient there?). But it's going to be a long time before we see it widely adopted in automobiles.
 
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Billyk24

Member
Jan 25, 2019
251
197
16001
The cheapest sources by levelized cost are already solar and wind and their prices haven't stopped falling.------you need to state the evidence. No way is installing solar panels on homes is cost effective for homeowners in many parts of the country. Paying $30,000 (cost quoted by solar companies that install such) is gong to take a longer payback time then one is going to live.
 

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