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Climate Change Denial

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Easy. CO2 acted as a long-term feed back. The source of CO2 was the oceans. There was an initial slight warming caused by a change in Earths orbit. This resulted in the oceans warming slightly. Warm water cannot hold as much gas as cold water so the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere increased. This increase drove more warming until a new equilibrium was reached.

Far from 'disproving' climate change this comes as close to verifying it as scientifically possible. Without the forcing effect of CO2 there is no other plausible explanation for the Ice ages. The tiny variations in Earths orbit are much too small to explain the ~10C swings in temperature that are observed from glacial to inter-glacial periods.

So of course the warming started first... something had to force some CO2 out of solution in the oceans. Orbital shifts triggered the warming but CO2 drove the majority of warming. Even then the real forcing agent is water vapor but the amount of water vapor is directly and exponentially proportional to the amount of CO2.
 
Peter Ward explains it more clearly and succinctly than I can.

Greenhouse gases simply do not absorb enough heat to warm Earth
Compared to your Catholic paranoia, the embrace of Peter Ward is almost sensible.

Almost, since Ward is just a fool and not insane
Why Is a Climate Change Skeptic Headlining Science Conferences?
Climate Skeptics: Peter Ward’s Ozone Depletion Theory

Screen Shot 2020-12-07 at 3.52.15 PM.png
 
Peter Ward explains it more clearly and succinctly than I can.

Greenhouse gases simply do not absorb enough heat to warm Earth

ok, so let's look at this article in detail...

First, we get a note that consensus cannot be equated to scientific proof. Then a discussion of LED lights, which doesnt really tell us much. Then a curious and rather confused discussion about heat vs light and radiation in general. Then there is a note that "carbon dioxide absorbs less than 16 percent of all the frequencies making up the heat radiated by Earth". Finally, we get this assertion: "There simply is not enough heat involved in any of these proposed processes to have any significant effect on global warming. Greenhouse-warming theory “just ain’t so.".

Consensus is not Proof In a sense this is of course true .. scientific proof is based on the basic tenets of science: evidence, reproducibility, verification, theory, and testable hypotheses. Popularity doesn't enter into this. But consensus does form part of reproducibility (that is, performing the same experiments and getting similar results) and verification (that is, performing new experiments that test the predictions of the theory in new ways). For example, Newtons law of gravity underwent many, many tests over many many years by scientists the world over. And the more varied and accurate those tests the greater the confidence in the veracity of the theory becomes.

But, again, consensus isnt about popularity. After nearly 200 years, the orbit of Mercury was observed to differ very slightly from that predicted by Newtons theory. Was that hushed up? Did the "cabal" of evil scientists suppress this? No, of course not. The issue was published, discussed and debated, and various suggestions made to account for the discrepancy (such as an undiscovered planet tugging on Mercury). Then along comes General Relativity, which provided a more accurate description of gravity and correctly predicted the actual orbit of Mercury (among other things).

This is how science works. It works that way for gravity, and evolution, and climate change. It even works for cold fusion, where the lack of reproducibility (it was tried, many times) led to a consensus that the whole idea was invalid (there never was a clear underlying theory).

CO2 Absorbs Only 16 Percent of Heat Radiated by Earth Let's assume this number is correct. What does that prove? Nowhere in the article does it state what percentage of radiation CO2 needs to be absorbed to cause global warming (even if it were that simple). There is then the curious phrase "this limited number of frequencies absorbed by carbon dioxide does not constitute heat". This is meaningless. All electromagnetic radiation contains energy, what we call radiative "heat" is purely related to the human senses. It just so happens we cannot see infra-red but our skin can feel its warming effects, so historically we have given it a special name. In fact, ultra-violet and other high-frequency radiation contains much more energy than infra-red. In this sense, UV and visible light are both "hotter" than infra-red.

There is Not Enough Heat Involved...Greenhouse-warming theory “just ain’t so.". This conclusion is plucked out if thin air. Apart from the meaningless 16% CO2 number quoted, no quantitative analysis is provided anywhere in the article to justify this conclusion. We are just given some odd ramblings about LED lights and confused assertions about "heat", and then this conclusion appears out of nowhere.

I see nothing at all in this article that casts any doubt whatsoever on global warming. Sure, it is strong on opinions, but if you are going to begin an article by saying consensus/popularity is not proof, and then provide absolutely no proof of your own assertions, then you are on pretty thin ice.
 
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Man-caused climate change is a religious dogma pushed by the papacy, not science. It's a means to an end for the papacy.

What you and many other climate warming sceptics seem to fail to understand, is that anybody with a bit of brain can (with own hands) verify the scientific models of the global warming – you do not need to believe any quack or papa to do that. That’s why science is so powerful, anybody can double check (or correct) it, and others that follow will continue to do the same.
 

LOL. Unless you are alive, breathing, metabolizing and generating heat. In which case you will definately increase your temperature. Or, to give a parellell to the earth, if there were some gases in the atmosphere (i..e "the blanket") that let visible light through (thus seeming invisible to us) but at least partly block EM radiation of other wavelengths (for example the range which we usually refer to as "heat") as the would radiate away from the earth and out in to space... Hmm... it would be like a green house in the summer. Someone should look in to this. If there were such gasses in the atmosphere increasing their concentration might cause a kind of warming net effect of the globe. One could even give it the catchy name "green house effect".
 
LOL. Unless you are alive, breathing, metabolizing and generating heat. In which case you will definately increase your temperature.
Yep.

My nastier side wants to put this Ward fool, along with anyone who accepts his drivel, under a blanket that completely blocks the sun in the Arizona summer and ask them why they have started sweating like pigs.
 
What you and many other climate warming sceptics seem to fail to understand, is that anybody with a bit of brain can (with own hands) verify the scientific models of the global warming – you do not need to believe any quack or papa to do that. That’s why science is so powerful, anybody can double check (or correct) it, and others that follow will continue to do the same.
It's convenient that anyone with a car has a greenhouse laboratory. They may want to buy a thermometer though, so they know when to exit the car and not die.

Consider this: Dogs learn very quickly that being left behind in a closed car in the sun is a death sentence, but human AGW 'skeptics' have not figured it out yet.
 
It is impossible to convince Trumpers that Trump is a liar. They believe everything he says, no matter how much evidence and facts are presented to the contrary. Same with the anti-climate people. No matter how much peer-reviewed science you show them, they will never be convinced that their personal math they did on the backside of a napkin which tells them the Earth is not warming, and if it were warming, it's not because of human activity, is wrong. I used to try to convince them otherwise but I've stopped. Sad that we've reached this point in American history where tens of millions of supposedly educated people just don't believe PEER-REVIEWED science and facts.

Peer-reviewed science and facts are how we: stopped acid rain (which started as a theory), broke the sound barrier (RIP Chuck Yeager), landed men on the moon, landed a vehicle on an ASTEROID (wow!!), and created cars that run on energy generated by the sun (thank you Elon Musk). In the end, the non-believers won't matter, as long as those of us who believe in peer-reviewed science continue to speak up.
 
It is impossible to convince Trumpers that Trump is a liar. They believe everything he says, no matter how much evidence and facts are presented to the contrary. Same with the anti-climate people. No matter how much peer-reviewed science you show them, they will never be convinced that their personal math they did on the backside of a napkin which tells them the Earth is not warming, and if it were warming, it's not because of human activity, is wrong. I used to try to convince them otherwise but I've stopped. Sad that we've reached this point in American history where tens of millions of supposedly educated people just don't believe PEER-REVIEWED science and facts.

Peer-reviewed science and facts are how we: stopped acid rain (which started as a theory), broke the sound barrier (RIP Chuck Yeager), landed men on the moon, landed a vehicle on an ASTEROID (wow!!), and created cars that run on energy generated by the sun (thank you Elon Musk). In the end, the non-believers won't matter, as long as those of us who believe in peer-reviewed science continue to speak up.

Sadly, this is true for way too many people about any erroneous belief, but once in a while a person of sufficient honesty, courage, and intellect will surprise you. Of course, these debates are never about the locus of our disagreement but for the bystanders too. This is why I don't argue with crazy in private. If I'm going to have this conversation then it should be in a place where any reading bystander can benefit, present or future.

When it comes to humans divesting themselves of false ideas, intellect alone is never enough. One must possess the intellectual honesty to appraise the data with an open mind and the courage to admit when one has it wrong. Unfortunately, far too many people lack one or more of these characteristics when the facts find them—because often these very same people trapped in bubbles of nonsense aren't actively looking for the facts. Given the way the fragile human ego responds to correction some of the time, the erroneous purveyor of falsehood is likely in active avoidance of the data lest they be forced to adapt. The beauty of a great argument is that sometimes one is helpless to resist the argument/data despite one's best efforts of self-delusion (and the spread of that delusion to others).

Intellect is helpful in allowing one to discern a skeptic from a denialist, to understand how the scientific method works, to understand the basic laws of logic, to recognize contradiction, to debate a point coherently, along with basic critical-thinking skills. Even if one fails all of this, the honest and courageous person will still defer to the expert and especially a consensus of experts (peer review), even if they've never heard the phrase 'peer review' in their life. Some may not even realize that merely having opinion doesn't make it 'equal' to a recognized expert about a given topic where expertise is relevant.

Intellect, intellectual honesty, and courage. Without these three employed concurrently, many will find a way to cling to their existing delusions no matter how obviously and demonstrably wrong they may be.
 
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Intellect, intellectual honesty, and courage. Without these three employed concurrently, many will find a way to cling to their existing delusions no matter how obviously and demonstrably wrong they may be.

In the midst of an internet argument about technology, my opponent told me "yes, I believe you have expert-level knowledge on this subject, and that I know absolutely nothing about it, but I still believe I'm right."

I had no idea how to continue the discourse after that.
 
In the midst of an internet argument about technology, my opponent told me "yes, I believe you have expert-level knowledge on this subject, and that I know absolutely nothing about it, but I still believe I'm right."

I had no idea how to continue the discourse after that.

Hilarious. That's a good time to end the conversation with that particular person unless there are bystanders who can benefit from the dialogue as you take your opponent to school.

So often, we're not just disagreeing with someone but having to educate them to even have the conversation in the first place. It's as if facts themselves cease to have meaning, depending on your opponent's position. This happens with a lot of ideological arguments, where the very worldwide consensus of established fact and theory are dismissed, which brings us back to denialism vs. skepticism. The two are conflated far too often.
 
(which started as a theory)

To be slightly pedantic science 'ENDS' as a Theory. No
matter how well 'proven' something is it will always be a Theory. To be a little more pedantic nothing in science is ever even 'proven'. Proof only exists in math. And to be even MORE uselessly pedantic science never 'ends', science is never settled although for all intents and purposes... yes... it is. No half-intelligent person still seriously questions relativity (gravity), evolution or climate change.

It is impossible to convince Trumpers that Trump is a liar. They believe everything he says, no matter how much evidence and facts are presented to the contrary.

You mean this guy lead his followers astray?

Screen Shot 2020-12-09 at 11.32.22 AM.png


THIS guy???

Screen Shot 2020-12-09 at 11.32.38 AM.png


Whaaaaat.....
 
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Peer-reviewed science and facts are how we: stopped acid rain (which started as a theory), broke the sound barrier (RIP Chuck Yeager), landed men on the moon, landed a vehicle on an ASTEROID (wow!!), and created cars that run on energy generated by the sun (thank you Elon Musk). In the end, the non-believers won't matter, as long as those of us who believe in peer-reviewed science continue to speak up

Totally agree .. I never expect any of my replies to these people to change their minds (Churchills definition of a fanatic: “someone who wont change the subject and cant change their mind”). But it’s good to expose the fallacies in their arguments so that others can see them for the nonsense they are.
 
In the midst of an internet argument about technology, my opponent told me "yes, I believe you have expert-level knowledge on this subject, and that I know absolutely nothing about it, but I still believe I'm right."

I had no idea how to continue the discourse after that.

If someone doesn't care about evidence and facts, what evidence or facts could you use to persuade them?

If someone doesn't value logic, what logic argument could you use to show the importance of logic?

DOES NOT COMPUTE.
 
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Proof that CO2 has minimal impact runs as follows:-

The surface of the earth is at a temperature that emits "black body radiation". In heading out into space it hits CO2 molecules and can excite them (causing them to heat up). However this excitation only occurs at a very specific frequency around 14 um and rolls off very rapidly on either side - 1um variation is at the 10% level. So what is the effect of extra CO2?

Consider a cubic metre of air. It contains around 3 * 10^22 molecules (mostly Nitrogen, but also Oxygen et al.)
Now consider a column of that Air 1 molecule wide and 1 deep, but a metre high. It will contain the cube root of the whole metre of gas, ie 3 * 10^7 molecules, so 30 million molecules of Air in our column.
At 400ppm (current CO2) that means 12,000 CO2 molecules in our column
Our photon of radiation at 14um sets off and has to avoid 12000 possible collisions in the first metre - its got no chance.
What happens if we double to 800 ppm - its still got no chance.
What happens if we halve to 200ppm? At 6,000 molecules its still got no chance.
Global warming is happening, and has been happening for 10,000 years since the ice age, but CO2 is of minor relevance
 
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Proof that CO2 has minimal impact runs as follows:-

The surface of the earth is at a temperature that emits "black body radiation". In heading out into space it hits CO2 molecules and can excite them (causing them to heat up). However this excitation only occurs at a very specific frequency around 14 um and rolls off very rapidly on either side - 1um variation is at the 10% level. So what is the effect of extra CO2?

Consider a cubic metre of air. It contains around 3 * 10^22 molecules (mostly Nitrogen, but also Oxygen et al.)
Now consider a column of that Air 1 molecule wide and 1 deep, but a metre high. It will contain the cube root of the whole metre of gas, ie 3 * 10^7 molecules, so 30 million molecules of Air in our column.
At 400ppm (current CO2) that means 12,000 CO2 molecules in our column
Our photon of radiation at 14um sets off and has to avoid 12000 possible collisions in the first metre - its got no chance.
What happens if we double to 800 ppm - its still got no chance.
What happens if we halve to 200ppm? At 6,000 molecules its still got no chance.
Global warming is happening, and has been happening for 10,000 years since the ice age, but CO2 is of minor relevance

What are your credentials?

Why are you talking about (true) irrelevant facts about CO2. You do know that EM radiation can have different wave lengths? And that the incoming radiation is shorter wave lengths, but the outgoing ("heat") radiation is longer wave lengths (pro-tip: the "diameter" of a photon is unchanged, but since you're obviously schooled in physics I don't have to lecture you about how the partice model of EM radiation is just one way to look at the phenomenon) which very much does interact with CO2 (intracts as in is absorbed).
 
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Proof that CO2 has minimal impact runs as follows:-

The surface of the earth is at a temperature that emits "black body radiation". In heading out into space it hits CO2 molecules and can excite them (causing them to heat up). However this excitation only occurs at a very specific frequency around 14 um and rolls off very rapidly on either side - 1um variation is at the 10% level. So what is the effect of extra CO2?

Consider a cubic metre of air. It contains around 3 * 10^22 molecules (mostly Nitrogen, but also Oxygen et al.)
Now consider a column of that Air 1 molecule wide and 1 deep, but a metre high. It will contain the cube root of the whole metre of gas, ie 3 * 10^7 molecules, so 30 million molecules of Air in our column.
At 400ppm (current CO2) that means 12,000 CO2 molecules in our column
Our photon of radiation at 14um sets off and has to avoid 12000 possible collisions in the first metre - its got no chance.
What happens if we double to 800 ppm - its still got no chance.
What happens if we halve to 200ppm? At 6,000 molecules its still got no chance.
Global warming is happening, and has been happening for 10,000 years since the ice age, but CO2 is of minor relevance
Your reasoning reminds me of a story I heard in Medical school:

A nurse is seen giving a shot without first disinfecting the skin. She explained that cleansing is not required because bacteria are so very small that the chance that her needle would find one was too low to worry about; but in the rare, care case that her needle was exactly where the bacteria was, that sucker was dead.
 
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