Climate Change Denial

[mspohr]

Such entitled attitude. Now let's look at the chart PER CAPITA.

Or we can trace the pollution to the end users... most of the pollution in China is a result of making stuff for the USA.

Most climate damage comes from rich Western people.

 

[IronHamster]

Such entitled attitude. Now let's look at the chart PER CAPITA.

Or we can trace the pollution to the end users... most of the pollution in China is a result of making stuff for the USA.

China made things for the US because of the NIMBYists. Environmental regulations raise prices, so it's easier to make a profit in a country where a worker can dump a barrel of toxic waste directly into the river with their EPA guy right there telling him not to do that, but nothing more happens. We have lithium here in the US, but it's easier to mine in China because its a dirty destructive process and our environmental lobby would throw a *sugar* fit if we did the same here. I don't think the environmental movement here really cares about the environment in China, but I could be wrong. I sure got the sails wrong on Bezos' super-yacht, and appreciate the correction. That pic is awesome.

 

[ohmman]

China made things for the US because of the NIMBYists.

Sure, that’s likely part of it. There is equal blame to go around to consumers and businesses that promote cost savings and shopping solely on price, and consumerism itself as a way of life. Planned obsolescence, unrepairable items, marketing what’s better and newer, etc. all play into this desire to spend, and to stretch the dollar. How do you stretch the dollar? By bypassing important environmental safeguards, by underpaying labor, by using child labor, dirty energy, subsidized manufacturing, etc.

What I’m trying to say is that it’s not one thing. China has taken over the world’s manufacturing for varied and nuanced reasons. It’s easy to blame the thing that resonates with us but really it’s just capitalism. Cost always wins.

 

[Undecided_2]

The truth is clear, however, unless China buys into dramatic CO2 reductions we are all in trouble.

Each Country's Share of CO2 Emissions

Which 20 countries emit the most carbon dioxide? You may be surprised.

www.ucsusa.org

View attachment 799005

Looking at the links you posted it’s clear the USA is leading the poll on worst polluter. Im not sure how you picked out China who’s is second on the list and with the USA pumping out nearly double the CO2!

 

[Undecided_2]

Most climate damage comes from rich Western people.

The U.K. imports the bulk of its food and goods. Yet the government shouts out how good it is regarding CO2 emissions as it’s other countries problems… where the goods are made and grown that the rich U.K. buys…

The things that makes me mad is paying top dollar for crappy goods. It’s almost impossible to buy something that lasts or is repairable. I’ve seen the amazing quality that factories in China can make goods. Yet we’re convinced ourselves that cheap and quantity is better.

We live in a world where businesses are more powerful than government. Probably as most people in the most powerful governments sit on the boards of the companies.

The obscure legal system that lets corporations sue countries | Business | The Guardian

<strong>The long read:</strong> Fifty years ago, an international legal system was created to protect the rights of foreign investors. Today, as companies win billions in damages, insiders say it has got dangerously out of control

amp.theguardian.com

 

[David_Cary]

No one should be conflating local air pollution with climate change. In the US, the air quality is mostly pretty good and mostly better over time. Not universal at all but not a huge problem in many areas. Cleaning up local air is easy - in most of the US.
I only say this because ignorant people think that because the air is getting cleaner that we must be doing ok. And the fact that our air quality is much better than other parts of the world, means we must be doing ok. Most of the population doesn't seem to understand the difference.

China manufacturing surely has a lot to do with lower labor costs.

 

[Undecided_2]

The question would be who sets the standards for air quality and what’s acceptable.

In my opinion, air should be clean but the standards agencies (regulated by government and influenced by business) have to factor/weigh the business needs. If they said that no man made pollutants are allowed as they cause diseases/respiratory problems businesses would sue the government.

I don’t give any credence to the air quality reports. Nor the crap that companies market about their products being environmentally friendly. Catalytic converters? Right. Shove your mouth over the tailpipe and let’s see how long you live Mr Ford/BMW etc..

 

[IronHamster]

The question would be who sets the standards for air quality and what’s acceptable.

In my opinion, air should be clean but the standards agencies (regulated by government and influenced by business) have to factor/weigh the business needs. If they said that no man made pollutants are allowed as they cause diseases/respiratory problems businesses would sue the government.

I don’t give any credence to the air quality reports. Nor the crap that companies market about their products being environmentally friendly. Catalytic converters? Right. Shove your mouth over the tailpipe and let’s see how long you live Mr Ford/BMW etc..

Air quality is about reducing concentrations of pollutants. One of the factories I worked at happened to be close to a coal generation station. Because the total particulates was too high by the new standards, they had to increase the height of their exhaust stack. This distributed their particulates so that the combined particulates stayed below the new standard. I think the whole project was about $3million. There, the solution to pollution was dilution.

 

[IronHamster]

Sure, that’s likely part of it. There is equal blame to go around to consumers and businesses that promote cost savings and shopping solely on price, and consumerism itself as a way of life. Planned obsolescence, unrepairable items, marketing what’s better and newer, etc. all play into this desire to spend, and to stretch the dollar. How do you stretch the dollar? By bypassing important environmental safeguards, by underpaying labor, by using child labor, dirty energy, subsidized manufacturing, etc.

What I’m trying to say is that it’s not one thing. China has taken over the world’s manufacturing for varied and nuanced reasons. It’s easy to blame the thing that resonates with us but really it’s just capitalism. Cost always wins.

I can't blame an economic system for pollution. The old Soviet Union had far worse environmental problems, although it is fair to point out that even communists require capital for their system. Humans are by nature greedy. Greedy rich, greedy poor. Greedy businessmen, greedy welfare queens... Those with successful economic models have the money to clean up after themselves.

 

[FlatSix911]

Such entitled attitude. Now let's look at the chart PER CAPITA.

Or we can trace the pollution to the end users... most of the pollution in China is a result of making stuff for the USA.

Nonsense, we are #11 on the CO2 per Capita chart and China's CO2 is growing rapidly.

My point is still valid... unless China buys into dramatic CO2 reductions we are all in trouble.

 

[CyberGus]

A common objection to enacting limits on CO2 is that “it’s pointless unless China etc does it too.” But this is not true.

Necessity fosters innovation. In a free market, striving to reach a goal will create new technologies, products, and even markets.

Polluters don’t enjoy polluting, they’re just taking the path of least resistance. New technologies ultimately benefit everyone.

 

[JRP3]

For those people who posted a few heavy snow events in the west as "evidence" of something:

Last week, seven Western states that rely on the Colorado River for water agreed with a recommendation by the Department of the Interior requesting that they implement conservation measures like the ones put in place in Southern California. While states like Washington saw sufficient rainfall this winter to alleviate drought conditions, portions of states like Arizona, California, Nevada, New Mexico and Colorado continue to experience extreme drought.

Western states fret as Lake Mead continues to shrink due to drought, climate change

As the drought gripping the American West enters its third year, water levels in Lake Mead, which supplies water to tens of millions of people, are at their lowest since the construction of the Hoover Dam in the 1930s.

www.yahoo.com

According to the U.S. Drought Monitor, all of Idaho south of the Salmon River is in moderate to severe drought, with some small areas experiencing extreme drought.

Idaho water officials issue emergency drought declaration for majority of state

Only a small sliver of Idaho is considered drought-free, as the declaration covers 34 counties.

www.yahoo.com

 

[FlatSix911]

Looking at the links you posted it’s clear the USA is leading the poll on worst polluter.
Im not sure how you picked out China who’s is second on the list and with the USA pumping out nearly double the CO2!

Please re-read the article - you are looking at the chart for historical emissions 1750-2020.

China is responsible for over double our current CO2 emissions (29%) vs the United States (14%).

We need to acknowledge this fact if we are serious about climate change. China must be part of the solution.

 

[JRP3]

We need to acknowledge this fact if we are serious about climate change. China must be part of the solution.

We don't control China.

 

[FlatSix911]

We don't control China.

That's the point - we need a global solution.

 

[ucmndd]

China is responsible for over double our current CO2 emissions (29%) vs the United States (14%).

We need to acknowledge this fact if we are serious about climate change. China must be part of the solution.

The bulk of China’s emissions come from producing goods to support rampant western consumerism. Those are OUR emissions, whether they happen here or in China. To pretend otherwise is deluded.

The way China becomes part of the solution is for the US and other western nations to turn off the demand spigot for unsustainably produced cheap garbage. China is already much more serious than the US is when it comes to reducing emissions related to their domestic infrastructure and population support.

 

[JRP3]

That's the point - we need a global solution.

Which starts at home. You can't pressure China and other countries if you aren't addressing the issue yourself. It's called being a leader, clean up at home and reduce demand for products made in China. What other solution do you think exists to put pressure on China, military action?

 

[FlatSix911]

The bulk of China’s emissions come from producing goods to support rampant western consumerism. Those are OUR emissions, whether they happen here or in China. To pretend otherwise is deluded. The way China becomes part of the solution is for the US and other western nations to turn off the demand spigot for unsustainably produced cheap garbage. China is already much more serious than the US is when it comes to reducing emissions related to their domestic infrastructure and population support.

Incorrect... Manufacturing is a small portion of their total annual emissions.
Denial is not the solution. We need China to partner on the use of clean energy.

 

[ucmndd]

What other solution do you think exists to put pressure on China, military action?

I suspect it’s a way to address cognitive dissonance and insulate our fragile psyches from having to entertain real change.

“I can’t change China, so I’ll just do nothing.”

 

[JRP3]

Incorrect... Manufacturing is a small portion of their total annual emissions.

You think they don't use electricity and heat in manufacturing?