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Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by Raffy.Roma, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    It's not a 'rationalization'... it's an explanation. CO2 is the largest known climate forcing but it's not the only one. The idea that increasing CO2 concentration in the atmosphere wouldn't cause significant warming is absurd. The physics is clear CO2 doesn't block incoming energy but does block outgoing energy. Further... the amount of thermal energy increase (mostly in the oceans) matches very closely to what would be expected.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. u00mem9

    u00mem9 Member

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    Yes, that's basically a good summary. Maybe we can all agree that 90% of what gets written and stated are repeated general statements (including in this thread). I've spent some time trying to understand what's really supported by evidence. When I discovered the adjustments to the historical record of temps and read the rationale for time of observation adjustments I basically lost all confidence that objective analysis was applied there. If you are familiar with the details and want to discuss, I'm interested. But if you aren't familiar you can catch up with a couple short papers at noaa site. IMO they are laughable...but by all means.

    Also I learned that 97% of scientists don't agree, 97% of publications agree...those are very different things. Again, looks like propaganda rather than scientific analysis.

    But I have no reason to doubt the recent CO2 trends, so the net increase in energy makes sense.

    Re: temp data...most of the places I checked initially didn't show much change...and perhaps more significant, the change did not match the dramatic rise popularly shown for global warming where the last 5 years look like an asymptote that goes vertical in 2020. For me that makes that story look like more propaganda. Just get caught manipulating that data, and everyone is going to ignore the CO2 situation as part of the mess. It's dangerous to the cause, but no one seems worried because the end justifies the means. I just don't agree and think it will ultimately be self defeating.

    Obviously there are some people here who have expertise and conviction they are right about this topic. I'm sure it's painful listening to people like me feeling their way around in the dark. I'm sympathetic (I have to listen to this forum attempt to discuss automotive engineering, after all!! ;) ). But I strongly suggest leaving the conspiracy theories about fossil fuel's master plan to destroy the Earth out of it. Even if you are right, I don't think you are convincing anyone. Put the effort into technical discussion and minimize the reposts of media articles that are, themselves, reposts of a summary article.
     
  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    Within the range of temperatures we are talking about the heat capacity the Earth's different compartments is, I presume, pretty stable. I've always take the CO2 sensitivity as a reflection of these (in aggregate) heat capacities, although there are other mechanisms as well.
     
  4. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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    I agree that there is a tendency for the media to overstate event attribution to climate change. But then, they take the abstract from any study and turn it into religion. I also believe there is a certain amount of publication bias behind the science.

    We can start a conversation on time of observation adjustments, if that's where you're hung up. I'm happy to discuss. I participated in a data science competition that dealt with weather data, so I had a little experience with what might be called "data manipulation" but is more accurately data smoothing. I may be able to contribute to your understanding, but I may not.

    In the meantime, I have finally found a good source for historical average temperatures by region. You really made it hard by requesting that. I had a tough time just tracking down the sources I posted earlier. This covers the US quite broadly, and you can filter by state, region, and some cities.

    Climate at a Glance | National Centers for Environmental Information (NCEI)
     
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  5. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    Absolutely correct. Perfect explanation for Green House Effect. Not only with increasing of CO2 concentration in the atmosphere the thermal energy increases but also the Ocean Acidification issue worsens with damages to the coral reef and to the life in the oceans.
     
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  6. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

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  7. flankspeed8

    flankspeed8 Member

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  8. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    It will deter future pipelines and that is good.
     
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  9. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

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    Now with the Shell video out, another piece of evidence from the oil industry, I want to respond this way to any deniers out there:

    Substitute everything here in the video Wonka says with scientific data, from 1957 when they were able to distinguish the carbon 12 from 14 in the atmosphere, to the climate science from Exxon during the late 70's/early 80's...........and then at the end say - GOOD DAY SIR!

    "What evidence, there was no evidence" - WRONG SIR, WRONG...........It's all there black and white, clear as crystal. The oil industry covered up climate change material.

     
  10. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

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    wow, making the world a better place eh.........................................

    EPA halts demand for methane information from oil and gas producers

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight................
     
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  11. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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  12. RichardC

    RichardC Cdn Sig & Solar Supporter

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    This is a very sad and short-sighted development. The North American auto industry is giving up any possibility of a having long term future in return for some short term profits, as it drives its fossilized technology platforms into the grave.

    Margo Oge is completely correct in her statement that: “The rest of the world is moving forward with electric cars. If the Trump administration goes backward, the U.S. won’t be able to compete globally”.

    Tony Seba has made clearly the compelling case for the replacement of gas with electric, see: Home - Tony Seba and .

    See also the Revenge of the Electric Car:


    The rest of the world is moving on (note that Tesla is the only North American manufacturer producing cars listed in the top ten list of upcoming electric cars): 10 electric cars coming in the next 3 years

    And then there is China, which is setting the pace (and achieving the required learning) by producing more electric vehicles than the rest of the world combined see: China's anti-Teslas: cheap models drive electric car boom
     
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  13. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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    I believe this is the underlying truth behind any argument against climate progress.
     
  14. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

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    Nice interview with Bill McKibben. I have always loved this quote:

     
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  15. beeeerock

    beeeerock Active Member

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  16. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

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    Why would there be any reason to gather methane information......./sarcasm

    Oh, this is why:

    Report: California gas utilities' annual methane leakage greater than Aliso Canyon leak

     
  17. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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  18. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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  19. ggies07

    ggies07 Supporting Member

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    #3380 ggies07, Mar 9, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
    yes, makes me so angry. sigh.........

    They're just going to kick the can down the ****ing road for as long as the can eh? bah!
     

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