TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
  1. TMC is currently READ ONLY.
    Click here for more info.

Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by Raffy.Roma, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    19,384
    Location:
    Central New York
    Who do you think paid for the misinformation campaign that promoted these ideas and the candidates who feed into it? They didn't come up with it on their own.
     
    • Like x 4
  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    I know that no amount of misinformation, no matter how glossy or hot the spokes-girl, will change physics.
     
  3. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    19,384
    Location:
    Central New York
    I don't know how that relates to the discussion. The fact is the fossil fuel industry created a campaign to present alternative energy creation and use as un-American, socialist, commie, liberal, whatever, and a large part of the media and politicians went along with it.
     
    • Like x 5
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    I'm trying to point out that FUD and propaganda is just noise to you and me. It does not affect our vote one bit.

    I am no more likely to vote trump-ish than I am to buy penile enlargement pills. Propaganda has no voting power in an educated person, and cannot be equated to a vote. You have to start with a trumper, and then the propaganda reaffirms what the trumper wants anyway.
     
    • Like x 1
  5. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    19,384
    Location:
    Central New York
    The misinformation campaign started decades ago. Yes it targeted some existing "values" which certain people were more likely to agree with than others but that was the whole point. Use the inherent fear of change of a group of people and play on that for years to get the desired result. It worked quite well for a long time but eventually reality will, (hopefully), win out.
     
    • Like x 2
  6. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Indeed, but that is not a vote, anymore than an advert is a co-signatory of my bank account.

    I don't ignore the ability of either to influence some people, I point out that neither has a pen. In a democracy people have an obligation to be informed if they do not want to be some one's pansy.
     
  7. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    19,384
    Location:
    Central New York
    That is unfortunately the flaw of democracy. It depends on people being rational.
     
  8. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8,943
    Location:
    California
    You seem to think that politicians work for the people.
    Politicians work for their donors. In Texas, this is the fossil fuel industry which makes rules which favor the industry. Get rid of regulation, discourage renewables, allow them to charge whatever they want, avoid responsibility for pollution, etc.
    Don't blame voters. Blame the bought and paid for politicians.

    Math:
    Cute, but irrelevant. Nobody was given the choice of saving $280/year vs the risk of starving, freezing, extortionate electricity bills and destruction of their house. This was all decided for them by the fossil fuel industry and their lackeys in the legislature.
     
  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Or at least informed, since 'rational' is often a value judgement unless we are talking science.

    But that is my point: propaganda sucks, but the idiots that accept it are the root problem. People who decide that pastors know more about AGW than climate researchers will make irrational decisions. I do not blame Faux news for their stupid decisions although Faux news certainly promotes and enables their stupidity.

    Same goes for trumper acolytes who reject science because they associate it with social agendas they disagree with.

    Close down Faux News, and these people will find another echo chamber that supports their proclivities.
     
  10. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    I think that the majority of the voting population put those politicians in office.
     
  11. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8,943
    Location:
    California
    Yes, but the politicians do what their donors want, not what the "little people" who voted for them want.
    I can't believe that you are so naive to not understand this. It has been studied extensively and proven time and again that the politicians work for their donors, not the people.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Nah. If that was the case, the voters would dump them come next election. The donors are in the game for the corruption.
     
  13. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    19,384
    Location:
    Central New York
    Except when the system is so rigged that the minority of the voting population puts them in office. Ever hear of the Electoral college and gerrymandering?
     
  14. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    #8434 SageBrush, Feb 21, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
    I have, and it will require extra effort on the part of the Texas electorate to reverse.
    Not any different, by the way, than what the Repukes had to do to reverse the Democratic Gerrymandering of Texas not too many years ago.

    In the most recent Pres election I had high hopes that high turn-out would flip Texas blue. The failure was no doubt in part due to gerrymandering but the bigger story was the unexpected performance by Trump above expectations in the Hispanic vote that perceived Biden's clean energy agenda as a threat to their jobs in the oil industry. Trump played that card very well; and in a twist of irony considering the man is a psychopathic liar, it might even have been true.

    W VA is much the same story: A Democratic stronghold for decades to collect socialized welfare, but virulently anti-Democratic in federal elections because of coal jobs.

    These are not people duped by propaganda, these are people that are voting their perceived (and somewhat rationally evaluated) self interest.
     
  15. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8,943
    Location:
    California
    It doesn't matter if they vote the other team in. Whomever wins ends up in the pockets of the donors.
     
  16. David_Cary

    David_Cary Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    Cary, NC
    Just to interject one thing.

    What percentage of the TX electorate went to the polls and voted based on electricity regulation?

    Now, what percentage of the donor's money comes from fossil fuels?

    Related, what percentage of the TX electorate (or any state) is educated enough to be free of media/propaganda influence? I would argue that there are very educated, very smart people who are completely influenceable. We all are to some extent. Not completely of course but look at prop 22 to demonstrate how a very liberal population can be convinced to vote against decent wages and worker's protection.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Funny x 1
  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    #8437 SageBrush, Feb 22, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
    I think you are conflating rights with actions. The system is set up to confer citizen rights -- in this case the right to vote for a representative of your interests. What you do or the representative does is a ymmv.

    I will say that if you vote for me to carry out your wishes and I do the opposite, then if you vote for me *again* you have only one person to blame. In the case of Texans, they are either fools, or they actually got what they wanted ... until they didn't want it last week.

    @mspohr 's and your argument that people lack the tools/information/intelligence/etc to act reasonable or in their own self-interest might be true but it does not matter, and the reasons it is so also do not matter in the sense that Democracy lays the responsibility for those issues squarely in the lap of the voter. We can both agree that Democracy works better when voters are not morons, but that is an opinion without any legal standing. I may decide to follow the lead of my local pastor or my favorite HS quarterback or the drunk on the corner on whatever issue it might be. I may be "unduly" influenced by the sweet lady in my bed. Not your right to infringe my right to be the biggest idiot in the world and to vote accordingly. Or not vote at all.

    Welcome to Democracy.
     
  18. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8,943
    Location:
    California
    I never said people lack tools/intelligence/information.
    I said we have a completely corrupt political system where we have legalized bribery that negates the voters.
    Dollars are the real votes and special interest vote the most.
     
    • Like x 1
  19. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8,943
    Location:
    California
    How Texas’ Drive for Energy Independence Set It Up for Disaster How Texas’ Drive for Energy Independence Set It Up for Disaster

    The energy industry wanted it. The people wanted it. Both parties supported it. “Competition in the electric industry will benefit Texans by reducing monthly rates and offering consumers more choices about the power they use,” George W. Bush, then the governor, said as he signed the top-to-bottom deregulation legislation. Mr. Bush’s prediction of lower-cost power generally came true, and the dream of a free-market electrical grid worked reasonably well most of the time, in large part because Texas had so much cheap natural gas as well as abundant wind to power renewable energy. But the newly deregulated system came with few safeguards and even fewer enforced rules.

    Innocent lives have been lost and upended in the name of retrograde ideology masked as policy. Real people, families and business have been destroyed. Climate change denial comes with a high human cost. Standing apart from the national electric grid isn’t independence. It is a death wish by another name.
     
    • Like x 3
  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    12,062
    Location:
    New Mexico
    This is a good post-mortem

    I wonder what other rare but high risk events that have been ignored are in Texas' future
    I imagine the concentration of petro-chemical industry on the coast is the Fukishima in the closet
     
    • Informative x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC