Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

[JRP3]

Spend some time on the AGW denial thread. Those fools are not paid lackeys, they read, they think, and they are quite sure they know that AGW is a liberal conspiracy to take away their god given rights to be dicks. No one has to buy their vote. And no one forces them to read Faux news, or impedes in any way their access to the realclimate.org. THEY choose what to read. THEY vote.

Who do you think paid for the misinformation campaign that promoted these ideas and the candidates who feed into it? They didn't come up with it on their own.

 

[SageBrush]

Who do you think paid for the misinformation campaign that promoted these ideas and the candidates who feed into it? They didn't come up with it on their own.

I know that no amount of misinformation, no matter how glossy or hot the spokes-girl, will change physics.

 

[JRP3]

I don't know how that relates to the discussion. The fact is the fossil fuel industry created a campaign to present alternative energy creation and use as un-American, socialist, commie, liberal, whatever, and a large part of the media and politicians went along with it.

 

[SageBrush]

New I don't know how that relates to the discussion

I'm trying to point out that FUD and propaganda is just noise to you and me. It does not affect our vote one bit.

I am no more likely to vote trump-ish than I am to buy penile enlargement pills. Propaganda has no voting power in an educated person, and cannot be equated to a vote. You have to start with a trumper, and then the propaganda reaffirms what the trumper wants anyway.

 

[JRP3]

The misinformation campaign started decades ago. Yes it targeted some existing "values" which certain people were more likely to agree with than others but that was the whole point. Use the inherent fear of change of a group of people and play on that for years to get the desired result. It worked quite well for a long time but eventually reality will, (hopefully), win out.

 

[SageBrush]

Yes it targeted some existing "values" which certain people were more likely to agree with than others but that was the whole point.

Indeed, but that is not a vote, anymore than an advert is a co-signatory of my bank account.

I don't ignore the ability of either to influence some people, I point out that neither has a pen. In a democracy people have an obligation to be informed if they do not want to be some one's pansy.

 

[JRP3]

In a democracy people have an obligation to be informed if they do not want to be some one's pansy.

That is unfortunately the flaw of democracy. It depends on people being rational.

 

[mspohr]

Of course not. No one reads the future with certainty. And it's not like Texas consumers did not have 2011 to learn from if they so inclined.

There is no lack of blame to spread around, and I most certainly would not choose the Texas way. But your never ending pitch that the evil Billionaires are the entire story and everybody else are innocent victims is BS.

Do you know who decides on ERCOT scope and directors ?
I'll tell you, it is the Gov and the state legislature.
I'll give you three guesses who chooses the Gov and the state legislature.

----
Second, stop the hyperbole let's and talk money for a moment. You are welcome to disagree but I suspect that winterization adds ~ 2 cents a kWh based on Tx and NM comparisons. Texan households consume ~ 14k kWh a year, so about 140,000 kWh since the last time they had a deep freeze. That works out to $2,800 per household savings every decade from skimping on resiliency. It would not be my choice, but it is not irrational.

You seem to think that politicians work for the people.
Politicians work for their donors. In Texas, this is the fossil fuel industry which makes rules which favor the industry. Get rid of regulation, discourage renewables, allow them to charge whatever they want, avoid responsibility for pollution, etc.
Don't blame voters. Blame the bought and paid for politicians.

Math:
Cute, but irrelevant. Nobody was given the choice of saving $280/year vs the risk of starving, freezing, extortionate electricity bills and destruction of their house. This was all decided for them by the fossil fuel industry and their lackeys in the legislature.

 

[SageBrush]

That is unfortunately the flaw of democracy. It depends on people being rational.

Or at least informed, since 'rational' is often a value judgement unless we are talking science.

But that is my point: propaganda sucks, but the idiots that accept it are the root problem. People who decide that pastors know more about AGW than climate researchers will make irrational decisions. I do not blame Faux news for their stupid decisions although Faux news certainly promotes and enables their stupidity.

Same goes for trumper acolytes who reject science because they associate it with social agendas they disagree with.

Close down Faux News, and these people will find another echo chamber that supports their proclivities.

 

[SageBrush]

You seem to think that politicians work for the people.

I think that the majority of the voting population put those politicians in office.

 

[mspohr]

I think that the majority of the voting population put those politicians in office.

Yes, but the politicians do what their donors want, not what the "little people" who voted for them want.
I can't believe that you are so naive to not understand this. It has been studied extensively and proven time and again that the politicians work for their donors, not the people.

 

[SageBrush]

Yes, but the politicians do what their donors want, not what the "little people" who voted for them want.

Nah. If that was the case, the voters would dump them come next election. The donors are in the game for the corruption.

 

[JRP3]

I think that the majority of the voting population put those politicians in office.

Except when the system is so rigged that the minority of the voting population puts them in office. Ever hear of the Electoral college and gerrymandering?

 

[SageBrush]

Except when the system is so rigged that the minority of the voting population puts them in office. Ever hear of the Electoral college and gerrymandering?

I have, and it will require extra effort on the part of the Texas electorate to reverse.
Not any different, by the way, than what the Repukes had to do to reverse the Democratic Gerrymandering of Texas not too many years ago.

In the most recent Pres election I had high hopes that high turn-out would flip Texas blue. The failure was no doubt in part due to gerrymandering but the bigger story was the unexpected performance by Trump above expectations in the Hispanic vote that perceived Biden's clean energy agenda as a threat to their jobs in the oil industry. Trump played that card very well; and in a twist of irony considering the man is a psychopathic liar, it might even have been true.

W VA is much the same story: A Democratic stronghold for decades to collect socialized welfare, but virulently anti-Democratic in federal elections because of coal jobs.

These are not people duped by propaganda, these are people that are voting their perceived (and somewhat rationally evaluated) self interest.

 

[mspohr]

I have, and it will require extra effort on the part of the Texas electorate to reverse.
Not any different, by the way, than what the Repukes had to do to reverse the Democratic Gerrymandering of Texas not too many years ago.

In the most recent Pres election I had high hopes that high turn-out would flip Texas blue. The failure was no doubt in part due to gerrymandering but the bigger story was the unexpected performance by Trump above expectations in the Hispanic vote that perceived Biden's clean energy agenda as a threat to their jobs in the oil industry. Trump played that card very well; and in a twist of irony considering the man is a psychopathic liar, it might even have been true.

W VA is much the same story: A Democratic stronghold for decades to collect socialized welfare, but virulently anti-Democratic in federal elections because of coal jobs.

These are not people duped by propaganda, these are people that are voting their perceived (and somewhat rationally evaluated) self interest.

It doesn't matter if they vote the other team in. Whomever wins ends up in the pockets of the donors.

 

[David_Cary]

Just to interject one thing.

What percentage of the TX electorate went to the polls and voted based on electricity regulation?

Now, what percentage of the donor's money comes from fossil fuels?

Related, what percentage of the TX electorate (or any state) is educated enough to be free of media/propaganda influence? I would argue that there are very educated, very smart people who are completely influenceable. We all are to some extent. Not completely of course but look at prop 22 to demonstrate how a very liberal population can be convinced to vote against decent wages and worker's protection.

 

[SageBrush]

Just to interject one thing.

What percentage of the TX electorate went to the polls and voted based on electricity regulation?

Now, what percentage of the donor's money comes from fossil fuels?

Related, what percentage of the TX electorate (or any state) is educated enough to be free of media/propaganda influence? I would argue that there are very educated, very smart people who are completely influenceable. We all are to some extent. Not completely of course but look at prop 22 to demonstrate how a very liberal population can be convinced to vote against decent wages and worker's protection.

I think you are conflating rights with actions. The system is set up to confer citizen rights -- in this case the right to vote for a representative of your interests. What you do or the representative does is a ymmv.

I will say that if you vote for me to carry out your wishes and I do the opposite, then if you vote for me *again* you have only one person to blame. In the case of Texans, they are either fools, or they actually got what they wanted ... until they didn't want it last week.

@mspohr 's and your argument that people lack the tools/information/intelligence/etc to act reasonable or in their own self-interest might be true but it does not matter, and the reasons it is so also do not matter in the sense that Democracy lays the responsibility for those issues squarely in the lap of the voter. We can both agree that Democracy works better when voters are not morons, but that is an opinion without any legal standing. I may decide to follow the lead of my local pastor or my favorite HS quarterback or the drunk on the corner on whatever issue it might be. I may be "unduly" influenced by the sweet lady in my bed. Not your right to infringe my right to be the biggest idiot in the world and to vote accordingly. Or not vote at all.

Welcome to Democracy.

 

[mspohr]

I think you are conflating rights with actions. The system is set up to confer citizen rights -- in this case the right to vote for a representative of your interests. What you do or the representative does is a ymmv.

I will say that if you vote for me to carry out your wishes and I do the opposite, then if you vote for me *again* you have only one person to blame. In the case of Texans, they are either fools, or they actually got what they wanted ... until they didn't want it last week.

@mspohr 's and your argument that people lack the tools/information/intelligence/etc to act reasonable or in their own self-interest might be true but it does not matter, and the reasons it is so also do not matter in the sense that Democracy lays the responsibility for those issues squarely in the lap of the voter. We can both agree that Democracy works better when voters are not morons, but that is an opinion without any legal standing. I may decide to follow the lead of my local pastor or my favorite HS quarterback or the drunk on the corner on whatever issue it might be. I may be "unduly" influenced by the sweet lady in my bed. Not your right to infringe my right to be the biggest idiot in the world and to vote accordingly. Or not vote at all.

Welcome to Democracy.

I never said people lack tools/intelligence/information.
I said we have a completely corrupt political system where we have legalized bribery that negates the voters.
Dollars are the real votes and special interest vote the most.

 

[mspohr]

How Texas’ Drive for Energy Independence Set It Up for Disaster How Texas’ Drive for Energy Independence Set It Up for Disaster

The energy industry wanted it. The people wanted it. Both parties supported it. “Competition in the electric industry will benefit Texans by reducing monthly rates and offering consumers more choices about the power they use,” George W. Bush, then the governor, said as he signed the top-to-bottom deregulation legislation. Mr. Bush’s prediction of lower-cost power generally came true, and the dream of a free-market electrical grid worked reasonably well most of the time, in large part because Texas had so much cheap natural gas as well as abundant wind to power renewable energy. But the newly deregulated system came with few safeguards and even fewer enforced rules.

Innocent lives have been lost and upended in the name of retrograde ideology masked as policy. Real people, families and business have been destroyed. Climate change denial comes with a high human cost. Standing apart from the national electric grid isn’t independence. It is a death wish by another name.

 

[SageBrush]

How Texas’ Drive

This is a good post-mortem

I wonder what other rare but high risk events that have been ignored are in Texas' future
I imagine the concentration of petro-chemical industry on the coast is the Fukishima in the closet