Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Fifth IPCC Climate Change Report Released | The Resilient Earth

Even the IPCC is backing down and admitting in their latest report that they overestimated the impact of CO2...


There will be folks with a lot of egg on their face when AGW will be exposed for the fraud it is. But Al Gore became a billionaire from the millions of lemmings that believed the scam...

Do you actually believe the stuff you push or are you just here to cause trouble. Can you show me a source that Gore is a billionaire too? Are your 'scientific' sources also this accurate?
Report: Al Gore's net worth at $200 million - CBS News

It is just sad reading what your write and seem to believe. Also, why don't you move onto something else like, um, Tesla given this is the Tesla Motors Club?
 
Why are the American Public and Politicians so Confused About AGW?

At this point, after having watched the climate denier trolls in action for a number of years, the question that I am seeking to answer, relates to the sources of and funding for the high levels of climate denialism that is apparent in North American publications and politicians. More specifically, since there is clearly no meaningful basis for a genuine scientific disagreement with respect to the consensus view (which is shared by all national academies of science and 98% of leading climate scientists) about the reality or the human causation of anthropogenic global warming (AGW), why do so many Americans and American politicians believe the science is less clear than it is? (For example, Pew Research surveys found that the number of Americans which viewed AGW as a serious threat dropped from 47% in 2007 to 37% in 2010, and a Gallup survey found that less than half of the 97% of Americans who were aware of climate change believed it was caused by human activity. More than half of the Republicans in the house and 65% of Republicans in the Senate deny the existence of climate change and/or oppose action on climate change.) See: http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/06/17/chapter-8-environmental-issues-2/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_opinion_by_country and http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/20/republicans-congress-science-laureate-bill-blocked

Climate change denial, and it sources, have been described in Wikipedia as follows:

Climate change denial is a set of organized attempts to downplay, deny or dismiss the scientific consensus on the extent of global warming, its significance, and its connection to human behavior, especially for commercial or ideological reasons. Typically, these attempts take the rhetorical form of legitimate scientific debate, while not adhering to the actual principles of that debate. Climate change denial has been associated with the fossil fuels lobby, industry advocates and free market think tanks, often in the United States. Some commentators describe climate change denial as a particular form of denialism.

Peter Christoff, writing in The Age in 2007, said that climate change denial differs from skepticism, which is essential for good science. "Almost two decades after the issue became one of global concern, the 'big' debate over climate change is over. There are now no credible scientific skeptics challenging the underlying scientific theory, or the broad projections, of climate change." The relationship between industry-funded denial and public climate change skepticism has been compared to earlier efforts by the tobacco industry to undermine scientific evidence on the dangers of secondhand smoke, and linked as a direct continuation of these earlier financial relationships. Aside from private industry groups, climate change denial has also been alleged regarding the statements of elected officials.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial

While the sources of the funds and the amounts used to fund climate change denialism remain, for the most part, shrouded in secrecy, the following reports provide some insights into this area.

The strategies employed by one of the major multinational oil corporations to cast doubt on the validity of climate science were discussed in a 2002 paper at: http://www.econ.upf.edu/~lemenestrel/IMG/pdf/climatepolicy.pdf Almost a decade later, despite public commitments to sustainability and green values, an analysis of 28 Standard & Poor 500 publicly traded companies by researchers from the Union of Concerned Scientists exposed a sharp disconnect in some cases between PR messages and less visible activities, with companies quietly lobbying against climate policy or funding groups which work to discredit climate science. See: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/may/30/companies-block-action-climate-change

Earlier in 2013 the Guardian reported that conservative billionaires had used a secretive funding route to channel nearly $120m to more than 100 groups casting doubt about the science behind climate change. These funds were doled out between 2002 and 2010 to help build a network of thinktanks and activist groups working to a single purpose: to redefine climate change from neutral scientific fact to a highly polarising "wedge issue" for hardcore conservatives. See: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/14/funding-climate-change-denial-thinktanks-network An article in Scientific American at the end of 2013 reported that:

"140 foundations funneled $558 million to almost 100 climate denial organizations from 2003 to 2010. ...
Another key finding: From 2003 to 2007, Koch Affiliated Foundations and the ExxonMobil Foundation were "heavily involved" in funding climate change denial efforts. But Exxon hasn't made a publically traceable contribution since 2008, and Koch's efforts dramatically declined, Brulle said. Coinciding with a decline in traceable funding, Brulle found a dramatic rise in the cash flowing to denial organizations from DonorsTrust, a donor-directed foundation whose funders cannot be traced. This one foundation, the assessment found, now accounts for 25 percent of all traceable foundation funding used by organizations promoting the systematic denial of climate change.
See: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort and http://drexel.edu/~/media/Files/now/pdfs/Institutionalizing Delay - Climatic Change.ashx

According to Greenpeace, interests owned by the Koch brothers have contributed over $67 million to climate-denial front groups that are working to delay policies and regulations aimed at stopping global warming. See: http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/polluterwatch/koch-industries/ This is approximately a third of the $196 million that they are reported to have donated to free-market and advocacy organizations. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Koch_brothers These amounts are in addition to the tens of millions spent by the Koch interests on lobbying. See: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Koch_Industries

While the oil and gas industry as a whole is reported to spend about $150 million a year on lobbying in Washington, this amount (which represents around one tenth of one percent of the profits of the five biggest oil companies) would appear to be money well spent in that the industry continues to receive tax breaks of around $4 billion per year and other legislative favours, See: http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/24/574161/what-five-oil-companies-did-with-profits/ and http://www.opensecrets.org/industries./indus.php?cycle=2014&ind=E01

For further information about climate change denialism (including the use of online robots to promulgate denier propaganda - does this sound familiar?) see:
http://www.desmogblog.com/are-clima...ups-polluting-online-conversation-denier-bots
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/20...-run-by-the-anti-science-pro-pollution-crowd/
http://climatecrocks.com/2013/10/22/trolls-r-us-how-fox-news-sock-puppets-spam-comment-threads/
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/Globa...e report on Climate Change Denial Machine.pdf
http://davidsuzuki.org/issues/climate-change/science/climate-change-basics/climate-change-deniers/
http://www.desmogblog.com/climate-cover-up
http://merchantsofdoubt.org/
 
Last edited:
This reminds me of some of you guys...

;)



STUDY: Climate change causing climate models to become less reliable

A groundbreaking new study has shown that climate change is the underlying cause of increasingly frequent and severe climate model failures. Researchers at Pennsylvania State Community College have discovered a critical link between atmospheric greenhouse gas concentration and general circulation model errors.

“Climate change has made it increasingly difficult to predict climate change,” says Dr. Manyard Michael, the lead scientist behind the study. “The current 16 year pause in global warming illustrates just how serious this situation has been; if not for climate change, we now know that we would have been able to accurately predict the current break in warming and clearly show that climate change is actually accelerating faster than forecast – not stopping as climate change is making it appear to those outside of the climate science community.” Dr. Michael also noted that they stumbled on this important finding almost by accident. “We just happened to notice that the higher carbon dioxide concentrations climbed, the more we had to adjust the data to get the results we knew to be right, and the more we adjusted the data, the bigger the error in the models. It’s a very strong positive feedback.”

This research has been quietly in the works for several years, and was almost compromised by the 2009 research theft known as “climategate.” For example, one particular email that has been cited repeatedly said in part, “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t.” Skeptics have misrepresented this quote to suggest that climate scientists can’t explain why the climate is not behaving as forecast and thus there is no climate change happening when in actuality, the researcher was lamenting exactly the opposite. He knew the fact that climate models did not predict a lack of warming meant climate change had progressed much faster than previously thought, and he was expressing sadness that man has brought the climate to this point.

Climate change deniers and anti-science websites have long grasped at the seemingly endless string of model failures and ever increasing forecast error as a way to argue the theory that humans are causing global warming is somehow falsified. Noted climate modeler Dr. Hans Jameson of the National Model Rocket Association commented, “thanks to this research, we can say with certainty what we in the climate research community [have] known all along, that the bigger the climate model errors, the more confident we can be that manmade climate change is happening.” Because climate change continues to accelerate faster than at any time since before the dinosaurs, the scientific consensus is that that there will be some truly stunning model failures on the horizon.

The researchers also stressed that mainstream climate science has demonstrated a remarkable ability to hindcast. As Dr. Michael points out “we can now predict the lull in warming of the past 16 years with surprising accuracy.” He further remarked that “given how well we can predict the past, the only thing that explains the difficulty of forecasting the future with equal success is the increasing concentration of greenhouse gasses. This research changes everything.” And while they are yet unable to fully explain the exact mechanics behind the correlation, the researchers expressed 99% confidence in their conclusion.

The study which is set to be published in every scientific journal is expected to open up new areas of unprecedented spending in the emerging field of climate research research.*
 
I would like to report this paragraph took from the abstract of the course mentioned in my previous post:

The public discussion on energy and the environment is sane and reasonable in many parts of the world. But, in other places, people frequently get so excited about this topic that they start threatening their neighbors, or comparing them to war criminals or people who kick kittens. We ask, and we require, that the discussion here will remain sane and reasonable.

Then, since I addressed this thread in a very technical way, I would like to invite all TMC Members posting in this thread to report only scientific data and facts without commenting them with sentences of political kind. Everybody is free to have his own ideas but in order to enrich the content of this thread I kindly ask to TMC Members to avoid to enter their own political ideas in their posts.

[To moderator: feel free to remove from this thread posts having political contents that don't belong to the matter of Climate Change/Global Warming discussion]
 
@Kaviball, can you sum up your position on climate change please? Or is your participation in this thread more nuanced? I'd like to understand where you are coming from?

My position is simply that it would be great not to find out how bad it could possibly get and to leave the planet in a better state than how I found it. If it takes a bit of my money, time and leg work that's ok.

As an example I do not own energy stocks that contribute to greenhouse gases. Could you provide some examples of your own please?
 

Meh, I was amused at first but now you're getting boring. From here on out, you are being replaced by AutoKaivball v1.0. This machine saves you all the work! You don't even have to spend time digging up articles that prove that global warming is a hoax. AutoKaivball v1.0 does all that.

AutoKaivball.PNG
 
According to Greenpeace, interests owned by the Koch brothers have contributed over $67 million to climate-denial front groups that are working to delay policies and regulations aimed at stopping global warming.

This Ad is apparently running on local Boston/Cambridge MA bus stop kiosks:
Forecast the Facts | Donate to expose David Koch’s denial in Boston

(text "Boston: We have a Koch problem. David Koch spends billions of dollars funding climate change denial. It's time to kick this anti-science billionaire off the WGBH board" )

Except that actual text on the ad on the bus stop I saw didn't say "this anti-science billionaire", it said "his anti-science ass". I thought it was funny.
 

There are several SIGNIFICANT differences between the IPCC and what most people would define as a "political body"... not the least of which is the fact that the IPCC is comprised of practicing scientists while "political bodies" like congress are made up of people that were able to buy more votes than the other guy.

The IPCC operates under TESTABLE theories while congress mostly just says the crap that they think their constituents want to hear.
 
I find myself amused by the link provided by Kaivball. The link references an organization headed by a "Dr Benny Peiser" who, according to a quote in Wikipedia, Peiser acknowledges that he is "not a climate scientist" and has "never claimed to be one." In fact, Peiser is a social anthropologist. If the link was supposed to provide support for his skepticism regarding climate change, he needs to find a credible source.
 
Meh, I was amused at first but now you're getting boring. From here on out, you are being replaced by AutoKaivball v1.0. This machine saves you all the work! You don't even have to spend time digging up articles that prove that global warming is a hoax. AutoKaivball v1.0 does all that.

View attachment 40053

Tigerade, your post and my recent research into sources of denier funding, and their use of social media has helped me to crystallize my views on the original AutoKaivball (v0.0).

It is now absolutely clear that he (or she or it) is no skeptic, but rather a Grade A certifiable Denier, with zero interest in science, evidence or the truth. Which leads me to suggest the following three possible explanations:

  1. As you, perhaps partially in jest, have suggested, it is a denier bot, programmed to go out and pollute social media with all of the unsupported and palpably nonsensical denier propaganda that we have been treated to over these many months.
  2. He (or she) is an ideologically motivated denier, going forth to spread the gospel according to OIL. (This doesn't seem very likely as most ideological deniers usually at least try to have some engagement with the applicable science - which has been noticeably, completely absent here).
  3. He (or she) is a paid industry flack who perhaps gets paid by the propaganda turdlet, knows that his or her stuff is all garbage and therefore doesn't waste any time whatsoever trying to defend it.

It now really boring. While I have learnt a lot from discussions with true skeptics over the years, this has become as intellectually interesting as a game of Whack-a-Mole.

Are there any true skeptics out there?

Alternatively, are any of the PR or think tank folks who are paid to advance the denier agenda willing to enlighten us as to the rules of that game?
 
Are there any true skeptics out there?

Plenty... but the VAST VAST VAST majority... perhaps all of them agree with AGW. Because that is the ONLY plausible theory. Seriously, there are ZERO published papers with an alternative explanation for recent climate observations. Debating wether AGW is true or false has only slightly more intellectual merit than debating wether the earth is flat or spheroid.