Climate change: Obama to unveil Clean Power Plan

[beeeerock]

There is one and he has been a senator who bucks the status quo, he's a guy I have supported for years, his name is Bernie Sanders.

I've heard of him... but my impression from this side of the border has been that he doesn't have the popular support to be the Rock Star necessary to get overly far. I don't want to subvert this into a political discussion, so let me ask instead, do you think he's completely on board with the need to address climate change? Is there anyone else, Democrat or Republican, that could be counted on to do anything meaningful? Or will it require a serious swing in public opinion on the subject to force something to happen?

 

[gene]

I've heard of him... but my impression from this side of the border has been that he doesn't have the popular support to be the Rock Star necessary to get overly far. I don't want to subvert this into a political discussion, so let me ask instead, do you think he's completely on board with the need to address climate change? Is there anyone else, Democrat or Republican, that could be counted on to do anything meaningful? Or will it require a serious swing in public opinion on the subject to force something to happen?

Bernie is the only high level USA politician to take climate change, medical care, stopping international aggression, retirement etc seriously. He is not just a talker like Obama turned out to be. Bernie has been in the senate for years speaking aggressively on these issues. He's a doer, not a talker.

I suggest you look at some of his addresses to congress on youtube. He has been speaking to growing crowds in the USA, people like what he has to say.
BTW: It was the Clintons who brought us NAFTA which was the biggest jobs loss creator in the USA.

 

[dsm363]

You don't have to be a climate change skeptic to understand that this will cost many their jobs. Obama said he would put coal out of business. Those in the coal industry aren't going to find jobs hanging solar panels overnight.

When cars and airplanes became popular it put most travel by train and the jobs associated with it out of business. The interstate highway system did the same for Route 66...history has plenty of such examples. Someone will lose their job. If that means we need as a nation to pay for training to transition to a new career then that's fine.

 

[nwdiver]

You don't have to be a climate change skeptic to understand that this will cost many their jobs. Obama said he would put coal out of business. Those in the coal industry aren't going to find jobs hanging solar panels overnight.

This has been posted before but I think it's appropriate to repost... we need to decouple 'work' from 'purchasing power' or we're all going to be in A LOT of trouble.

Switching to renewables creates more jobs in the short term but solar and wind produce FAR MORE kWhs / man-hour in the long-run; That's simply the 'cost' of progress. Focusing on 'jobs' is myopic, self-defeating and ultimately futile.

 

[Canuck]

Bernie is the only high level USA politician to take climate change, medical care, stopping international aggression, retirement etc seriously. He is not just a talker like Obama turned out to be. Bernie has been in the senate for years speaking aggressively on these issues. He's a doer, not a talker.

I suggest you look at some of his addresses to congress on youtube. He has been speaking to growing crowds in the USA, people like what he has to say.
BTW: It was the Clintons who brought us NAFTA which was the biggest jobs loss creator in the USA.

I also really like Bernie Sanders. But to say he's a doer and not a talker like Obama misses the mark when it comes to American politics. It's nearly impossible to make significant changes as President, excluding only appointments to the Supreme Court. Obama learned this lesson fast, as would Sanders if he was ever elected President. Unfortunately, that's more of an impossibility than being unlikely. Sanders is, in fact, a great talker. I love him on Bill Maher. But as a doer, what has he actually done? He can't get elected President and appoint Supreme Court judges, something Obama has done. Plus, Obama passed health care reform, ended the war in Iraq, passed the stimulus, turned around the US auto industry, etc., etc...

Obamas Top 50 Accomplishments by Paul Glastris, Ryan Cooper, and Siyu Hu | The Washington Monthly

 

[NigelM]

You don't have to be a climate change skeptic to understand that this will cost many their jobs. Obama said he would put coal out of business. Those in the coal industry aren't going to find jobs hanging solar panels overnight.

I was in the UK when Thatcher took on the coal miners in the early 1980s; it wasn't pretty but in the long-term was probably the right thing to do. Different reasons here today, but short-term pain for long-term gain is likely inevitable.

 

[beeeerock]

I was in the UK when Thatcher took on the coal miners in the early 1980s; it wasn't pretty but in the long-term was probably the right thing to do. Different reasons here today, but short-term pain for long-term gain is likely inevitable.

This could (should?) be taken a step further... into the realm of 'growth is the only way to measure success' thinking.

We have yet to understand, much less implement, any sort of economic model that acknowledges that we can't measure business success by growth forever. At some point (and we've likely already passed it), the planet won't be able to support any more of us than it does already. We can invent all sorts of ways to increase farm production, etc., but eventually population growth and with it market growth will hit the wall. Finite planet, finite resources, finite growth. Then what?

In a sense we're already talking about this, or around this. If you can leave a field of solar panels generating in the sun, without the supply/labour chain necessary to get oil or coal out of the ground, to the generating plant, etc... after the initial construction years, maintenance will be simple. Fewer jobs. Yes, they'll appear elsewhere. We hope. But the road to renewable energy is running parallel to the road heading for a sustainable economy, so the same problems will ultimately be faced. It's something we'll have to do sooner than later anyway.

If we make it past the threat of Climate Change, it's going to be a very interesting new world - on many levels.

 

[RiverBrick]

You don't have to be a climate change sceptic to understand that this will cost many their jobs. Obama said he would put coal out of business. Those in the coal industry aren't going to find jobs hanging solar panels overnight.

The Union for Concerned Scientists says in the USA there are only 70,000 jobs in coal currently. How many people used to work for the typewriter industry?

Funny how the same people that arguing how clean coal is are often the same ones bashing EVs by saying they pollute as much as ICE vehicles due to electricity generated from coal.

 

[Bangor Bob]

As expected, Alpha Natural Resources filed for Chapter 11 yesterday. Arch Coal and Peabody Energy aren't too far behind them.

U.S. Coal Company Alpha Natural Resources Files For Bankruptcy - Forbes

 

[ggies07]

One thing I've been taught is you have to be proactive if you want results. If I were in the coal industry, I would be proactive and move to the renewable industry. I do not feel sorry for those that will stand their ground until the end and then say "what happened, where's my job"

 

[nwdiver]

One thing I've been taught is you have to be proactive if you want results. If I were in the coal industry, I would be proactive and move to the renewable industry. I do not feel sorry for those that will stand their ground until the end and then say "what happened, where's my job"

HEY! There's only been a STRONG scientific consensus for ~30 years... that's not enough time to get another job! :wink:

 

[GregRF]

That's it? It's just a series of infographics?

Is there a PDF? I see a zillion SHARE ON FACEBOOK, SHARE ON TWITTER buttons but no download button anywhere.

You can find all 1560 pages here:
http://www2.epa.gov/cleanpowerplan/clean-power-plan-existing-power-plants#federal-plan
(shorter summary documents also available)

 

[Electroman]

I completely disagree with any suggestion that 'Obama is only a talker and not a doer'. With this antagonistic Republican congress it is simply a miracle that he has accomplished more than many Presidents of the modern era.

I think he has fundamentally changed in a positive way some of the basic structures of our nation that have been entrenched for decades - Health care, the way govt works, automotive industry, clean power, immigration reform, Cuba, Iran (not so sure if it is positive or negative) - to name a few.

Coal workers will lose jobs and the writing was on the wall for over a decade now. Jobs for the sake of jobs doesn't benefit anyone.

Now if he can take on Car dealers that would be great.

 

[ohmman]

I completely disagree with any suggestion that 'Obama is only a talker and not a doer'. With this antagonistic Republican congress it is simply a miracle that he has accomplished more than many Presidents of the modern era.

+1 from me.

 

[RiverBrick]

I also really like Bernie Sanders. But to say he's a doer and not a talker like Obama misses the mark when it comes to American politics. It's nearly impossible to make significant changes as president...

Yes, in the parliamentary system the Canadian Prime Minister has proportionately much more power than the US President. I wonder who will be the PM in November.

 

[beeeerock]

I wonder who will be the PM in November.

It'll be either Larry, Moe or Curly... wake me up when election day comes - I think I'll have myself Michael Jackson'd in the meantime. I don't think I can endure all the nonsense we're guaranteed to see between now and October 19th...

 

[vinnie97]

I completely disagree with any suggestion that 'Obama is only a talker and not a doer'. With this antagonistic Republican congress it is simply a miracle that he has accomplished more than many Presidents of the modern era.

Right, if by ignoring the number of times the Supreme Court has shut him down, you might have a leg to stand on. I also like how your side controls the language (i.e. health care "reform"). It can't be more obvious why I avoid this subforum now with the kind of hero worship going on for someone who is more interested in destroying than building up, seeking to divide and conquer over unification, elevating special interest groups above all else. I also find it pretty comical (and disturbing) how many think one-third of US' generating capacity can be replaced with a President snapping his fingers. This is just Barack not reneging on his promise to make electrical prices necessarily skyrocket. Hey, that's no problem to your average Tesla Model S owner, but the rest of us can certainly eat cake and might as well continue to use ICEs for what will amount to the cost of electrical generation in short order.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Right, if by ignoring the number of times the Supreme Court has shut him down, you might have a leg to stand on. I also like how your side controls the language (i.e. health care "reform"). It can't be more obvious why I avoid this subforum now with the kind of hero worship going on for someone who is more interested in destroying than building up, seeking to divide and conquer over unification, elevating special interest groups above all else. I also find it pretty comical (and disturbing) how many think one-third of US' generating capacity can be replaced with a President snapping his fingers. This is just Barack not reneging on his promise to make electrical prices necessarily skyrocket. Hey, that's no problem to your average Tesla Model S owner, but the rest of us can certainly eat cake and might as well continue to use ICEs for what will amount to the cost of electrical generation in short order.

 

[beeeerock]

I also find it pretty comical (and disturbing) how many think one-third of US' generating capacity can be replaced with a President snapping his fingers.

It would be naive to believe that most people think this will be simple or easy... or without political and economic costs. If there was another way, or if the changes weren't necessary, I'm sure the world would love to hear about it.

Bottom line, Climate-reality will trump Economic-reality and Political-reality... whether we like it or not.

The sooner we stop whining about it, roll up our sleeves and get to work, the sooner we can sit down and have a beer. Avoidance and denial hasn't worked too well so far - why would it become more successful in the future?

 

[Canuck]

Right, if by ignoring the number of times the Supreme Court has shut him down, you might have a leg to stand on. I also like how your side controls the language (i.e. health care "reform"). It can't be more obvious why I avoid this subforum now with the kind of hero worship going on for someone who is more interested in destroying than building up, seeking to divide and conquer over unification, elevating special interest groups above all else. I also find it pretty comical (and disturbing) how many think one-third of US' generating capacity can be replaced with a President snapping his fingers. This is just Barack not reneging on his promise to make electrical prices necessarily skyrocket. Hey, that's no problem to your average Tesla Model S owner, but the rest of us can certainly eat cake and might as well continue to use ICEs for what will amount to the cost of electrical generation in short order.

President Obama "is more interested in destroying than building things up"? Did you miss the end of the last term of a Republican President?

President Obama is more interested in "elevating special interest groups above all else"? What about Halliburton and the last Republican administration? Or the mother of all special interests, Citizens United? Who pressed for that? Republicans or Democrats? Who chewed out the Supreme Court, in public, over that special interest decision? Are you suggesting the Supreme Court is always right?

I have conservative leanings but it's comments like these, as if we worship the President, that will never have that party in power again for a long, long time. Clinton is all but a lock because independents decide elections, and she has the majority of them, and rightly so.