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Climate facts to warm to

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by tonybelding, Dec 14, 2007.

  1. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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  2. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #2 TEG, Dec 14, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2007
    Hey Tony, watch where you point that finger. You are poking me in the eye!

    Seriously, there are many very one sided, politically motivated sites trying to push their agenda, and "heartland institute" is one of them.

    see this where they talk about all the funding that went to them from ExxonMobil.

    If you don't believe that global warming is a serious problem that is your prerogative, but do keep in mind that many EV supporters do so because they are concerned about such things and think that oil burning _could_ be causing such problems. Forget about global warming for a moment... Do you think that burning oil causes smog? ( Haved you ever lived in smog prone places like Mexico City, Hong Kong, or even Los Angeles)?

    Perhaps the "global warming scare" is over-hyped (and I hope it is for all our sakes), there are still plenty of other reasons (from direct air pollution, to shortages, to tanker spills, to inequity for countries without oil reserves) that I think we can still all agree that reducing oil consumption is a good thing.

    I try to stay away from this sort of talk, but your blunt comment forced me on to my wobbly soapbox.
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    By the way, I respect your knowledge, abilities, and status as a Tesla Roadster customer.

    Did you once say you are buying it with money you are getting from an oil company that is putting a well on your property? If so, that is rather ironic.

    --------------

    Also when I talk of politically motivated, one sided sites, many of the ones providing EV information are obviously pushing a "lefty agenda" so I can see how you might feel the need to push another viewpoint.
     
  4. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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    This sub-forum is named "Environment". If discussion of global warming doesn't belong on this web site, then I would assume the "Environment" sub-forum would be taken out.

    All I want is to see some science applied to the subject. It shouldn't be a religion with Al Gore as the prophet of the End Times. You know, Al Gore won the Nobel prize jointly along with the IPCC. If you read the IPCC reports, global warming comes across as a manageable problem. If you listen to Al Gore, it's the end of civilization -- maybe even the end of life on earth. Who should I believe? Should I believe the hundreds of scientists in the IPCC, or should I believe the one loudmouth who is not any kind of scientist but managed to get a movie made?

    And it was actually a lease to drill for natural gas on our property. You know, the stuff they make hydrogen from. :)
     
  5. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Yeah, well, there is some carbon in that natural gas that would likely get released if you wanted to convert it to hyrdrogen, or burned it directly.

    Sorry I made a fuss about your subject matter. I agree, this part of the forum is appropriate for this type of discussion. I should have probably just stayed away!

    I gather there has been loads of science applied. It seems the problem is picking which sets of results to believe. No matter what, you have to extrapolate out to something that hasn't happened yet, so of course there is room for speculation. Certainly there are all sorts of interests trying to paint the picture the way that best helps their cause.

    I don't know enough about this subject to have much to say... accept I hope Al Gore's version turns out to be wrong.
     
  6. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    If I were Tony I would do the same thing. That is, lease my property for NG pumping to get a Tesla.** At least it is a (still) needed fuel from a LOCAL source.


    It would be difficult though for me to say how much carbon I would not be putting into the air by driving an EV knowing that as the car drives the pump that paid for it is ultimately offestting that segment to the car's bragging rights.


    **Personally I am brainstorming on dozens of schemes to have one of these in my driveway. Some none too pretty.
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I am cozy and warm in my house right now fueled by natural gas. Not giving that up easily!
     
  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  9. W8MM

    W8MM R1.5 #325 + Mdl S #01380

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    OK, how about "New Study Increases Concerns About Climate Model Reliability" from a refereed journal?

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071211101623.htm
     
  10. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    That seems like more realistic news, but it only casts doubt on the accuracy of some of the data. Saying that we should ignore the whole phenomenon because we can't predict it perfectly seems to me an oversimplification.

    Also, I have seen the argument that "we can't control the weather" so why bother. Perhaps we can't control the weather directly, but we can influence the weather. So again, just because it isn't perfect science doesn't mean we shouldn't consider trying to do something.

    I shouldn't even being saying anything here. I really know so little of the science.

    But it seems obvious that special interests are trying to steer perception.
     
  11. W8MM

    W8MM R1.5 #325 + Mdl S #01380

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    http://www.lttonline.co.uk/lttxtraarticle.php?uid=7064


    Carbon rationing predicted to deliver collapse in travel demand


    "Transport policy-makers should start preparing now for a dramatic reduction in motorised travel that will be brought about by carbon rationing, one of the country's leading environmental thinkers told LTT this week.

    "Just start reading the runes because what's going to happen is the demand for road, rail and air travel is going to start falling away just as soon as we have rationing," says Mayer Hillman in an interview with the magazine.

    Hillman, senior fellow emeritus at the Policy Studies Institute, says carbon rationing is the only way to ensure that the world avoids the worst effects of climate change. And he says that the problems caused by burning fossil fuels are so serious that governments might have to implement rationing against the will of the people.

    "When the chips are down I think democracy is a less important goal than is the protection of the planet from the death of life, the end of life on it," he says. "This has got to be imposed on people whether they like it or not."

    -----------------------------

    Fellow travellers?
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Again, you don't have to believe in global warming to find reasons why fossil fuel conservation has merits. We know there is a limited supply, and it is the best fuel for aircraft. So if we ration now it may provide more opportunity for our great grandchildren to be able to fly as well. Should we just use it all up as fast as we can?
     
  13. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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    Yeargh! What is it with these pseudo-intellectual socialists? They just won't give up, no matter how many times their philosophy has been discredited. :mad:

    Now Global Warming is the excuse for their latest call for some kind of bureaucratic elite to take control and run everybody's lives.
     
  14. W8MM

    W8MM R1.5 #325 + Mdl S #01380

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    So, you don't really believe in markets?

    There was once an impending whale oil shortage. What happened to it?
     
  15. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I don't know much about that, but there are frequently at least two sides to every story.

    Sure, I suppose if we use all the fossil oil we could switch to making corn-ethanol based airplanes, or something like that. I still think that conserving now makes it easier on future generations.
     
  16. The Other Martin

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    I love Tesla fanatics

    Well, Mr. Belding, you know how to pick a fight.

    I'm in the camp of the "unconvinced about global warming and extremely skeptical of Al Gore and other wealthy, heavy-energy-consuming Hollywood types who want to dictate guilt and a low quality of life for me but not themselves." If that makes me a moron or an infidel, ...oh, well - that's life.

    However, I'm 100% in favor of conservation, alternative energy sources of all types, and I'm eager for us to get away from spending gazillions of dollars in the middle east and other nasty places on the planet.

    But I'm thoroughly impressed with the quality of people here and those responding to the teslamotors.com blogs. We might disagree about the politics of energy to varying degrees, but we're all hoping Tesla is a great success and that we can someday buy a Roadster or a WhiteStar or a TeslaMonster SUV (all electric, of course).

    TEG - I'm with Tony on the global warming threat, but I agree with you that we shouldn't just do nothing. You're class act and one of my heroes. (Although if you're real global warming believer, you should turn off the natural gas and shiver through the winter. Or at least feel constant, unrelenting guilt whenever you turn on the heater...)

    vfx - [**Personally I am brainstorming on dozens of schemes to have one of these in my driveway. Some none too pretty.] Don't do it. Crime never pays. Well, sometimes it pays very well, but that doesn't make it right. Don't do it.

    I'm still missing The Original Martin, but hoping for the best in BEVs and enjoying the company here.
     
  17. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I do what I can (up to a point) to live towards my beliefs. I get yelled at all the time for turning off lights in the house when others have to turn them back on later. (The rest of my family would just as soon leave all the lights on all the time, but I can't bear to do that). We keep the thermostat down a couple degrees below optimal comfort level in the winter, and just wear outdoor clothes in the house. Luckily, the mild climate around here means little need for A/C in the summer. I have solar panels covering almost 100% of the electric bills. Even with all that I don't like to tell others what to do. I am more a believer in setting an example and making suggestions than forcing people to do things. It would be great if enough people volunteer to conserve so we don't end up having mandatory rationing in the future.
     
  18. The Other Martin

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    That's why you're one of my heroes. I try to do the same.

    The do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do elitists (especially those who attempt to demand it through legislation) don't inspire me at all.
     
  19. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    T.O.M. wrote:

    "vfx - [**Personally I am brainstorming on dozens of schemes to have one of these in my driveway. Some none too pretty.] Don't do it. Crime never pays. Well, sometimes it pays very well, but that doesn't make it right. Don't do it."

    You mean I have to give up my "Super Battery Fund" Ponzi scheme?
    :)
     
  20. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Hey vfx, I got a deal for you. Why invest in a regular "mutual fund". You can be a part owner of my "super fund". Yes a real estate investment that makes you part owner of a "super fund site". Super!

    ==============

    By the way, our conspicuous consumption will eventually come back to haunt us.

    Who will clean up this mess?
    [​IMG]
     

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