TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

CNG REEVs?

Discussion in 'Cars and Transportation' started by TEG, Jan 21, 2008.

  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    #1 TEG, Jan 21, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2008
    If batteries are too expensive for long enough range, a CNG REEV could still give homeowners the option to never visit the gas pump. If your home station has a CNG compressor and an EV plug then you could recharge and refuel at the same time, and not have to go to the gas station even if you sometimes went past your EV only range. If we had more commercial CNG refueling infrastructure then you could expect less possibility for fuel price gouging because they would be competing with home refueling. CNG is inherently more clean burning than gasoline.


    By the way, I wonder about carpool lane stickers for gasoline REEVs… Since they have the gasoline ICE I bet they don’t get stickers even if you tried to argue that the ICE is rarely used. In California EVs and CNGs are already entitled to carpool privs so I imagine a CNG REEV would be able to get a carpool sticker as a CNG vehicle (even though it ran on batteries most of the time).


    I had a propane (similar to CNG) car for a while, and it has a number of benefits. Engine parts tend to last longer because the CNG evaporates and burns more cleanly leaving less deposits in the engine. You don’t need detergents in your fuel to try to keep the engine clean. Spark plugs last longer. Oil stays cleaner. I bet CNG is a better fuel for long term storage (if the ICE rarely fired up) compared to gasoline as well.
    The discussions I have seen of the last few months suggested to me that many auto upstarts are giving in to the idea that they have to embrace the convenience of the existing gasoline refueling infrastructure. I hope we can get away from that even if it doesn’t mean 100% BEV just yet.

    GXcnglogo.jpg

    ..."The EPA says the Civic GX has the cleanest internal combustion it has ever tested."...

    Come on Honda - how about a GX series hybrid. The benefits of CNG with even better fuel mileage and plug in capability.
    A gasoline free road trip would be more tolerable if you could refuel/recharge from either CNG or electric depending on what you can find.
     
  2. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    #2 TEG, Jan 21, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2008
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Natural gas is the "Blue Fuel".
    [​IMG]
    The perfect fuel for "Blue Star".

    How about "Blue is the new Green" as a tag line?
     
  4. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    This DOE research project has been developing an absorbing storage material so you don't have to compress the natural gas as much.
     
  5. Kardax

    Kardax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Messages:
    258
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    I like the idea... but natural gas is still a fossil fuel. We're already starting to import it. And when people I know are already spending $500 a month on natural gas to keep their homes warm in the winter, it's hard to be enthusiastic about increasing the demand, driving the price up higher.

    You can't reasonably say natural gas is a long-term solution to any problem.

    -Ryan
     
  6. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    I want photo-voltaic charged BEVs as much as the next guy.
    It is just that Fisker and GM (and perhaps Tesla) seem to be on the REEV bandwagon, so I hope they use the fuel with the best overall set of compromises. Having an infrastructure of pipes already running to lots of homes is a good start, and the low emissions characteristics (when burned) are positive compared to gasoline.

    I know someone who owns a few gas filling stations. The money he makes from it is outrageous. We need something other than gasoline!
     
  7. Kardax

    Kardax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Messages:
    258
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    If the whole point of a "range extender" is to enable cross-country drives, CNG is not practical for that purpose. Our highways aren't littered with CNG stations like they are with regular gasoline stations.

    I think it's likely that all the range extenders we've been hearing about lately will be based on either ordinary 87-octane unleaded gasoline, or diesel. It's not perfect, but it's everywhere, and it'll be around long enough for battery prices to come down and make long-range BEVs affordable.

    -Ryan
     
  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    At what point does the price of gasoline become so great that we want to do everything possible to get some alt fuel stations to be built?

    There are lots of fleet vehicles including taxis and buses that run on CNG.
    Try out the alt fuel station locator and see if there are CNG stations in your area.
     
  9. Kardax

    Kardax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Messages:
    258
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    Depends on the fuel. Natural gas is closely related to oil, and tends to follow its price shifts, so it'll never be a cheap alternative. Natural gas-derived hydrogen has the same problem.

    Given the cost of "true" alternatives (as opposed to other oil-derived things), I believe the price of gasoline would have to be very high ($10 a gallon or more) and a fleet of affordable alternative vehicles would be needed before any serious infrastructure changes will happen.

    Thanks for the link :)
    Where I live, within 25 miles, there is the following:
    1 CNG
    7 LPG
    1 Biodiesel
    52 E85
    0 LNG
    0 Hydrogen

    Of all of those "alternatives", only BioDiesel and 85% of E85 are renewable (and hydrogen if made from solar-powered electrolysis).

    -Ryan
     
  10. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    25 miles of my location:

    9 Electric
    13 CNG
    12 LPG (Propane)
    2 BioDiesel
    0 E85
    0 LNG
    5 Hydrogen (although 3 are "planned", and 2 are for buses only)


    That link isn't all encompassing. I am sure there are some more not listed.

    Amazing that you have 52 E85 and I have 0
     
  11. Kardax

    Kardax Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Messages:
    258
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    If I expand it to 100 miles, it jumps up to 179 E85 stations. Nearly all of them are a part of normal gas stations, making it a rather mainstream fuel. I know in many states the whole "flex-fuel" thing is a cruel joke, but around here it's very real.

    The reason is I live in the Midwest, the heart of the corn-based ethanol industry. They were pretty hard-core about it for several years, but they were perhaps a little too successful... demand jumped, corn prices jumped, ethanol prices jumped, resulting in E85 being only marginally cheaper than unleaded-87, and everyone knows you lose some gas mileage, so when someone says they're using E85, it's more as a political statement than a practical thing to do.

    I think everyone here likes ethanol, but are uneasy about using corn to produce it. The education seems to be pretty good. Not as many people are knowledgeable about specific alternatives like cellulosic production or alternative crops like switchgrass, but everyone would welcome any improvements to the technology.

    -Ryan
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    The governor of CA got in some hot water over a fleet purchase of E85 capable vehicles that ended up being run just on standard gasoline instead.

    With 100 mile radius I get:

    91 Electric (lots in Sacramento)
    48 CNG
    48 LPG
    15 Biodiesel
    4 E85 (Government use only)
    5 LNG (private only)
    11 Hydrogen (4 planned, the rest are private/fleet - nothing "public")
     
  13. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,091
    Location:
    Hamilton, Texas
    Within 100 miles I get:

    0 electric
    2 CNG (only one is public)
    84 LP gas
    32 biodiesel (mostly in and around Austin)
    6 ethanol E85
    0 LNG
    0 hydrogen

    The only public CNG station was 92 miles away, in Fort Worth.

    The closest biodiesel is 79 miles, though one is "planned" only 40 miles away at Fort Hood.

    The closest ethanol is 43 miles.

    It says LP gas is available from two places right here in my town -- from the same people who fill our propane tanks, apparently.
     
  14. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    17,252
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Based on that availability data, and Martin's comment that it takes a lot of energy to compress natural gas, perhaps LPG (propane) is a better choice as an alt-fuel for a REEV that doesn't want to use gasoline.

    LPG is available a lot of places to fill RVs, portable barbecues, portable heaters, forklifts, etc. When I had my propane Rx7 I used to drive right up to the locations where they advertised filling barbecue cylinders and asked them to fill my car instead.

    With a high boost turbo to take advantage of the high octane, I was making more HP than when the car ran on premium gasoline.
     
  15. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,091
    Location:
    Hamilton, Texas
    But is LPG really an "alternative" fuel? I mean, instead of gasoline made from petroleum we'll go to this other stuff that's made from petroleum? Doesn't make good sense.

    BTW. . . The finder showed no electric car charging stations within 100 miles from my home, but didn't account for the two RV parks in my town or the "planned" station that will be in my home garage before the end of the year. :wink:
     

Share This Page