Co-Pilot mode: I want to be primary driver, but use AP as Co-Pilot

[instigator]

What do others think about a Co-Pilot mode:
I drive, but car activity takes over to avoid; collisions, unsafe lane change, bumping parked cars/curbs. Always-on safety !

Tesla provides has some of this with collision avoidance, but they could do much better. Right now without AP I can drift across double yellow lines or into bike lines/shoulders. I can change lanes and hit a car in my blind spot with no resistance.
I can roll into the car in front of me or hit a parked car while parking. I get a Stop warning.. why not stop for me ?

This may bring up concerns about the leaving control to the car.. but the idea would be that a driver could still take back control by force on the wheel or stepping on the accelerator.

ChrisFleck on Twitter

 

[ewoodrick]

Some already exists.

Having automation take over a car and then the driver talking ir back in less tga a second isn't probable

 

[Silicon Desert]

I already have it. The female in my front passenger seat screams and tries to take over the wheel when I do something she doesn't like

 

[instigator]

I already have it. The female in my front passenger seat screams and tries to take over the wheel when I do something she doesn't like

LOL !

 

[Elmexiken]

Wait. It doesn't beep or anything if I try to make a lane change and there's someone occupying the lane next to me?? I haven't had the situation happen yet.

 

[jjrandorin]

What do others think about a Co-Pilot mode:
I drive, but car activity takes over to avoid; collisions, unsafe lane change, bumping parked cars/curbs. Always-on safety !

Tesla provides has some of this with collision avoidance, but they could do much better. Right now without AP I can drift across double yellow lines or into bike lines/shoulders. I can change lanes and hit a car in my blind spot with no resistance.
I can roll into the car in front of me or hit a parked car while parking. I get a Stop warning.. why not stop for me ?

This may bring up concerns about the leaving control to the car.. but the idea would be that a driver could still take back control by force on the wheel or stepping on the accelerator.

ChrisFleck on Twitter

I would have to vote no on this. The new BMW X3 M40 I just picked up has "active lane keeping assist' for example. It has some steering intervention if you change lanes without a signal, trying to pull you back into the lane. There is nothing quite so scary as you driving a car and something actively fighting you, for whatever reason.

I am ok with humans driving. I am ok with (eventually) cars driving. I am ok with the car warning the human, and "preparing" to help the human (pre priming the brakes, active braking if the car determines its about to slam into something, assisting in steering around an obstacle... but having the car "jump in" and contradict the human driver will cause more accidents than it prevents in my opinion.

By contradict, I mean behave in a manner counter to what the human driver is inputting, such as refusing or fighting against going into or out of a lane, things like that.

There is a lot of this now in all the safety features, but they have to be careful, and until we are at full autonomous driving, ensure that the human driver still feels fully in control of the car.

 

[SSedan]

So you want the car to be able to overrule you. That sounds like a step beyond FSD to me.

 

[Sophias_dad]

I assume you know about the steering wheel shaker if you begin to drift across lanes without your turn signal (for the lane change) active...

I also understand it'll change a lane line red if you start a dangerous lane change. Never tested it. Wouldn't be that hard, if it doesn't already, to have it make noise.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Wait. It doesn't beep or anything if I try to make a lane change and there's someone occupying the lane next to me?? I haven't had the situation happen yet.

It does this. It'll beep like a banshee, and identify in red on the lane display which vehicles it thinks are in the way (not that I rely on that screen, but maybe people do?). OP seems to be talking about the car vetoing your active inputs and providing alternative inputs to control the vehicle? But that's upside-down from what I'd expect from a "co-pilot". Right now "co-pilot" is exactly what I think Autopilot is. I'm still in command, oversee the operation, I just delegate some of the menial stuff.

 

[animorph]

Yeah, that's basically FSD. But it would be nice. Quite a liability problem if the car is competing with the driver for control.

However, I thought a couple of posters/You Tubers had described instances where the car took evasive action on its own while not in Autopilot to avoid a side collision. It certainly beeps if I aim at a slow moving car in front of me.

 

[lbowroom]

There's no audible warning, (beep like crazy) when trying to change lanes into an occupied space. There is a red line and little half circles, but that's it. It been complained about widely on the Tesla forum.

 

[OPRCE]

the steering wheel shaker if you begin to drift across lanes without your turn signal (for the lane change) active

The LDW vibration through the wheel is too weak, practically imperceptible at motorway speeds by a driver nodding asleep, and should be accompanied by a loud audible warning.

 

[derotam]

What do others think about a Co-Pilot mode:
I drive, but car activity takes over to avoid; collisions, unsafe lane change, bumping parked cars/curbs. Always-on safety !

Tesla provides has some of this with collision avoidance, but they could do much better. Right now without AP I can drift across double yellow lines or into bike lines/shoulders. I can change lanes and hit a car in my blind spot with no resistance.
I can roll into the car in front of me or hit a parked car while parking. I get a Stop warning.. why not stop for me ?

This may bring up concerns about the leaving control to the car.. but the idea would be that a driver could still take back control by force on the wheel or stepping on the accelerator.

ChrisFleck on Twitter

While I see where you are going, that would negate the idea/rule that the driver is supposed to maintain control of the vehicle at all times. If the car could do what you are suggesting and it makes a mistake then who ends up being liable? There would be someone who would blame the system for any accident they got in also. The current idea is that the driver knows or should know best and until the car systems can PROVE otherwise it will stay that way.

A good example of the wariness of doing something like this is the automatic emergency braking(at highway speeds)...specifically the "stopped firetruck" issue. I don't have me sources off hand here but car manufactures debated how their collision avoidance systems would work with stopped objects on the highway and whether to have the car attempt to stop or not. The decision has commonly been to NOT react to a stopped object on the highway because there are all kinds of scenarios that could effectively "fool" the sensors into thinking there was an object in the road thereby causing a severe braking incident. Way too many scenarios to parse with the technology installed right now. If the car severely brakes when it wasn't needed, it could cause an accident that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

 

[ℬête Noire]

The decision has commonly been to NOT react to a stopped object on the highway because there are all kinds of scenarios that could effectively "fool" the sensors into thinking there was an object in the road thereby causing a severe braking incident.

Ultimately this is a sensor ability issue underlying, but yes false positives are the problem if they were trying to trigger off of radar while traveling over about 50mph. With currently feasible radar tech on passenger vehicles the signal is just too noisy to reliably pick out an object at a dead stop while traveling at that speed.

 

[derotam]

Ultimately this is a sensor ability issue underlying, but yes false positives are the problem if they were trying to trigger off of radar while traveling over about 50mph. With currently feasible radar tech on passenger vehicles the signal is just too noisy to reliably pick out an object at a dead stop while traveling at that speed.

Ohh blah blah the signal is too noisy(sorry)...if it is too noisy then they are just using crap tech because there is no incentive not too. Radar technology is sufficiently advanced enough to provide the required level of detail. I think there may be a complexity issue that is keeping it out of the market or lack of demand at this time, but the technology has sufficiently existed for decades.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Ohh blah blah the signal is too noisy(sorry)...if it is too noisy then they are just using crap tech because there is no incentive not too. Radar technology is sufficiently advanced enough to provide the required level of detail. I think there may be a complexity issue that is keeping it out of the market or lack of demand at this time, but the technology has sufficiently existed for decades.

Cost matters. For the equipment itself and the support equipment (primarily power source, potentially also physical space). Thus my use of the word "feasible".

There is detailed technical discussions on this on this board and elsewhere if I've misread your attitude from you post and you're inclined to look actual details.

 

[instigator]

Good discussion, regarding:

1. Tesla has this already - Some of it .. but could do much more. Today with EAP off, I can:
a. Drift across a double yellow line.
b. Drift into a bike lane or shoulder.
c. Change lanes into a car in my blind spot ( I'm not sure of this .. but I get no audible noise or wheel resistance when I test )
d. Hit a parked car or curb when parking at slow speed. Today I get an audible warning and visual "Stop" .. why not just stop for me ? If intend to go further then I press the accelerator.
2. Liability - there is already liability potential with collision avoidance so this shouldn't be much different.
3. Sensors / Cost - The basic set of features could be done with just a SW update. Perhaps more in the future with HW.
4. False calls - Yes the car will make false calls as it does in EAP mode. But we handle that now by taking control or stepping on the accelerator.
5. Steering wheel shaker / LDW exists - Yes .. again thats part of it. But it could be better. Make it audible, offer more resistance if the sensor says there is a car in my blind spot. Also this does not work at slower speed or side roads.
6. More ideas to make the car safer ?

Note that this would be an optional mode, I you prefer it as today.. thats the default.

 

[T34ME]

I already have it. The female in my front passenger seat screams and tries to take over the wheel when I do something she doesn't like

Has my wife been driving with you !?

 

[T34ME]

So you want the car to be able to overrule you. That sounds like a step beyond FSD to me.

No, that sounds like my wife !

 

[T34ME]

Having automation take over a car and then the driver talking ir back in less tga a second isn't probable

My wife can take over control of the car faster than Autopilot !