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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I'll let you know when it is reached. Certainly more than a couple dollars a month, let alone $1 a year. LOL
mikeash
Active Member
Why does understanding basic concepts like legal entities and ownership mean I have a very, very sorry life?
You're not entitled to use an outlet that doesn't belong to you. Belonging to an HOA you're a member of does not qualify. It's simple!
Saying it's OK to plug in without permission because it's cheap is like saying it's OK to walk out of the local 7-11 with a candy bar without paying because it's cheap. It simply doesn't follow.
Let's say there's a candy bowl in the office of your gym. Someone takes a piece of candy from the bowl every time they go to the gym. You do the math and realize it's costing about a dollar of your annual membership. It's true, some of us think it's unfair. Others of us seem to want to spend less of their life worrying about such things.
The easiest way to fix this is to offer to let the owner pay for their estimated annual electric use. This would be easy for everyone. Instead it sounds like the president is the sort of person who would follow that candy taker to the parking lot and yell at them. Nobody wants to be that guy.
The easiest way to fix this is to offer to let the owner pay for their estimated annual electric use. This would be easy for everyone. Instead it sounds like the president is the sort of person who would follow that candy taker to the parking lot and yell at them. Nobody wants to be that guy.
If the electricity is .10/kwh and he plugs in for 12 hours each night, that's $438 for the year. Just say'n......
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
It is a ski condo, with 60 members
People are tying their panties into knots over pennies
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Send a self addressed, stamped envelope; I'll be happy to send you a dollar a year since that is the amount we are talking about here.
And notice the difference: you get a few pennies for being ridiculous; OP at least charges up his EV.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
This is so utterly wrong and it's exactly the kind of BS I heard from my Condo association decades ago as a young lawyer as I tried to nicely tell them that the rules of procedural fairness apply and that they can't arbitrary decide how something I partially own is used without providing me with a clause prohibiting its use, failing which they owed me clear, cogent and reasonable reasons for denying me access. I told them that their consent cannot be unreasonably withheld. That's the law -- in the US and Canada.
Let's look at how this actually works in real life: They say you can't use it, you say you can. Either you accept their denial, and back down, or you use it anyway. You back down. It goes no further. Then the law doesn't really matter. This happens most of the time because people are generally spineless and let tyranny win. But let's say you don't back down and use it anyway. Then what? What happened to me, and most others, is they fine your account. BUT:
"There is no inherent authority vested in an association to impose fines on its members for violations of the governing documents. It can only do so if such authority is provided in the association’s governing documents. Most CC&Rs or bylaws do give the board such authority, either directly or through the power to adopt rules relating to the management of the development. If no such authority is given in an association’s governing documents, those documents will have to be amended to provide such authority before monetary penalties may be imposed on the association members."
I know the above is from California and the OP is in Colorado, but this is the law and I googled it and grabbed the first cite I found since I can just say what it is, but it has more effect with a citation. Legislation also affects the common-law rules, and that varies from State to State, and Province to Province, but not by much. Read what the by-laws and legislation say about imposing fines. Can they do so for any unreasonable reason? Of course not.
Now, I am not saying that someone moving into a condo should hoard a common plug -- to me that's unreasonable. But as I understand the OP's situation, he is only looking for occasional use of an outlet at his vacation property. In the absence of a clause I agreed to in the by-laws, or a reasonable reason not to use it, which I have not heard, I would tell them nicely I am using it, and I would see them in Court if they fined my account. I'd also offer to pay an extra sum to cover the electrical costs, as a gesture of good faith, and on a strictly without prejudice basis. If they still wanted to be arseholes to me after that, then bring it on. I can only be nice for so long.
*Disclaimer -- none of this is legal advice -- it's just my personal opinion based on a lawsuit I was involved in regarding a condo I owned years ago -- which I had to sue to have fines removed from my account.
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mikeash
Active Member
In theory, couldn't the HOA hit you with theft for using the outlet without permission? Here's an example of someone ending up in jail for this:
EV Driver Jailed for ‘Stealing’ 5 Cents of Electricity
Of course, that driver didn't own part of the school he was "stealing" from, but does that really matter? I can't walk into my local Tesla gallery and take what I want just because I own some TSLA.
Now, HOA rules may well provide for reasonable use of shared facilities, in which case you do have permission and it's fine. My point is just that it's not a matter of "you own it" or "it doesn't cost much."
EV Driver Jailed for ‘Stealing’ 5 Cents of Electricity
Of course, that driver didn't own part of the school he was "stealing" from, but does that really matter? I can't walk into my local Tesla gallery and take what I want just because I own some TSLA.
Now, HOA rules may well provide for reasonable use of shared facilities, in which case you do have permission and it's fine. My point is just that it's not a matter of "you own it" or "it doesn't cost much."
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I guess they could arrest you for vacuuming your car from your condo's garage outlet too then...
As to ownership:
Technically, a condominium is a collection of individual home units and common areas along with the land upon which they sit. Individual home ownership within a condominium is construed as ownership of only the air space confining the boundaries of the home. The boundaries of that space are specified by a legal document known as a Declaration, filed on record with the local governing authority. Typically, these boundaries will include the wall surrounding a condo, allowing the homeowner to make some interior modifications without impacting the common area. Anything outside this boundary is held in an undivided ownership interest by a corporation established at the time of the condominium's creation. The corporation holds this property in trust on behalf of the homeowners as a group—it may not have ownership itself.
But, yes, that's just like how Tesla holds that gallery in trust for me as a TSLA shareholder -- so plug in! ...
You don't see rules allowing for reasonable use of share facilities. That's implied. It would be absurd to suggest that everything permitted must be listed, or, conversely, everything prohibited. That's where discretion comes into play, and it's precisely that discretion that they must exercise fairly, and not arbitrarily, as you said they can do when you wrongly stated "the HOA gets to decide how it's used." If the law is as you state it is, there would be no court actions over these issues, since the HOA decides, right? Strange then that the Courts routinely sets aside HOA's unreasonable decisions.
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Uuuggghhh. I hate when people in electric car forums or article comment sections do not understand what actually happened there and cite it as "stealing electricity". That is NOT AT ALL what it was about. I read more of the charges that were filed and the whole buildup of complaints that went on in that case. It was a TRESPASSING charge, not theft of electricity. His son did not go to that school, but he had been bringing him there to use the tennis courts after hours when people weren't supposed to be there. The school had told him to not come on the school grounds, mainly because of liability concerns, so that was the forewarning not to trespass. Then, he continued to do it anyway. Someone noticed as a side thing that he had an electric car that he had been plugging in there, but that's not what the main charge was. So sure, while the principle is still correct, that you shouldn't plug in somewhere without asking, could you please help our community by stopping spreading this false myth that this guy was jailed for stealing electricity? It was trespassing.
The agreement we are finalizing with the Board of Directors states that I will pay for the Electricity with a separate meter. There is a possibility we can run a line directly from my circuit breaker panel in the unit to save the cost of installing a second meter.
I felt it was interesting that all the Board members were strongly against the Condominium paying for the electricity. First stipulation that they brought up. Understandable though.
We'll see how it turns out.
Jim
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Did those idiots understand that they are forcing you to spend hundreds if not >$1000 in order to save themselves pennies per charge ?!?
Why in the world do they not just accept $50 a year to cover the electricity ?
By the way, it only seems fair to demand in kind, that the community 110V receptacles be removed so that no one uses electricity on the HOA dime. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. You could compromise and route the 110v to your breaker box ;-)
Or perhaps put a current meter on the 110v circuit and agree to pay for all the electricity, just to show them how petty and moronic they are acting.
I must say, you have got yourself involved with a group of turds. Of any particular political persuasion ?
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