Combined Charging System (CCS) 2.0

[stopcrazypp]

PhoenixContact does not state any vehicle-side cooling requirements.

Do the Tesla S and X use vehicle-side active cooling of the charging socket? I don't recall seeing any evidence that they do and yet they support ~350A charging today.

My assumption is that the charging station's active cooling of the plug's DC pin area also provides adequate cooling of the vehicle socket pins.

Tesla does not do vehicle side cooling. I think the current pin size for CCS is okay for 350A charging with similar cooling as Tesla is doing to with superchargers. But getting to 350kW is a challenge (while still maintaining similar battery voltage).

 

[widodh]

My assumption is that the charging station's active cooling of the plug's DC pin area also provides adequate cooling of the vehicle socket pins.

Probably true, but they can also use thicker cabling inside the vehicle and use more passive cooling probably.

 

[rvdput]

But getting to 350kW is a challenge (while still maintaining similar battery voltage).

Voltage will increase to max. 1000V in order to achieve 350 kW, so (almost) the same cabling can be used.

Probably true, but they can also use thicker cabling inside the vehicle and use more passive cooling probably.

That was exactly my thought as well. You cannot make a very thick charger cable since it would be impossible to handle hence the active cooling. But inside a car is a different story.

 

[RDoc]

The liquid cooled Supercharger cools the cable to make it thinner, not the plug. The plug is the same as the uncooled version.

 

[techmaven]

Voltage will increase to max. 1000V in order to achieve 350 kW, so (almost) the same cabling can be used.

Since pack voltages are typically 300-400 volts, going to higher voltages necessitates a very expensive DC to DC converter. I just don't see that happening in the short term except maybe in a Porsche. As a result, 250A for the CCS plug as it stands without extraordinary support would mean roughly 85 kW peak charging. I still think they need to revise to handle 400A at the plug without special support that might very well break easily.

That was exactly my thought as well. You cannot make a very thick charger cable since it would be impossible to handle hence the active cooling. But inside a car is a different story.

I'm just saying that the socket side of in the car has to be built to handle the additional cooling requirements as well as the wiring would have to be beefier. It would be interesting to know if Chevy plans on building 300-400A capable wiring into the Bolt from the get go and when a CCS plug gets revised, they can offer a reasonable retrofit upgrade.

 

[widodh]

Since pack voltages are typically 300-400 volts, going to higher voltages necessitates a very expensive DC to DC converter. I just don't see that happening in the short term except maybe in a Porsche. As a result, 250A for the CCS plug as it stands without extraordinary support would mean roughly 85 kW peak charging. I still think they need to revise to handle 400A at the plug without special support that might very well break easily.

Is that true? Let's say you have 8 "banks" of 100V in your vehicle which make up the battery pack.

With some contactors and relais you can arrange it to a 400V pack in 4x2 setup for driving, but during charging you can re-arrange the banks in a 8x1 setup so that you have a 800V pack.

From what I understand this is what Porsche is going to do.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Is that true? Let's say you have 8 "banks" of 100V in your vehicle which make up the battery pack.

With some contactors and relais you can arrange it to a 400V pack in 4x2 setup for driving, but during charging you can re-arrange the banks in a 8x1 setup so that you have a 800V pack.

From what I understand this is what Porsche is going to do.

Yeah, I was wondering what Porsche would do, but I didn't imagine it being a 800V pack only when charging, but rather 800V always and only switch to 400V to support charging on legacy chargers (none of the current CCS chargers are built for 800V charging).

 

[Jeff N]

The liquid cooled Supercharger cools the cable to make it thinner, not the plug. The plug is the same as the uncooled version.

Do we actually know that? I haven't seen a detailed technical description of what Tesla has done. In any case, Tesla has talked about moving towards 150 kW. If their "cooled cables" experiment works well we may seem them roll that out as standard SuperCharger equipment especially for their fastest rate locations. There is probably little overall cost difference between supporting cooled cables vs cooled cables and plug.

 

[Jeff N]

Yeah, I was wondering what Porsche would do, but I didn't imagine it being a 800V pack only when charging, but rather 800V always and only switch to 400V to support charging on legacy chargers (none of the current CCS chargers are built for 800V charging).

Yes, I was assuming 800V packs would be able to open a contactor internally and then be able to charge as two 400V packs connected in parallel.

 

[widodh]

Yeah, I was wondering what Porsche would do, but I didn't imagine it being a 800V pack only when charging, but rather 800V always and only switch to 400V to support charging on legacy chargers (none of the current CCS chargers are built for 800V charging).

You can probably have all kinds of things, but it probably boils down to a pack which can dynamically be re-configured for a different voltage.

Yes, I was assuming 800V packs would be able to open a contactor internally and then be able to charge as two 400V packs connected in parallel.

Yes, so they can charge on 400V if needed.

And my educated guess is that Tesla is also working on that. They also know that you can't keep pushing the Amps upwards.

Voltage has to be increased to achieve higher charging rates.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You can probably have all kinds of things, but it probably boils down to a pack which can dynamically be re-configured for a different voltage.


Yes, so they can charge on 400V if needed.

And my educated guess is that Tesla is also working on that. They also know that you can't keep pushing the Amps upwards.

Voltage has to be increased to achieve higher charging rates.

Probably 250kW can still be supported by increasing amps and maintaining the 500V limit of today's chargers. Aerovironment had a 550A charger that was able to do 250kW with a standard cable and that voltage limit (demonstrated on a 35kWh Phoenix Motorcars SUT). You can also do more exotic things like dual sockets/cables.

Of course having an internal contactor is a more elegant way to maintain backwards compatibility.

 

[techmaven]

Is that true? Let's say you have 8 "banks" of 100V in your vehicle which make up the battery pack.

With some contactors and relais you can arrange it to a 400V pack in 4x2 setup for driving, but during charging you can re-arrange the banks in a 8x1 setup so that you have a 800V pack.

From what I understand this is what Porsche is going to do.

Hmm... well, the Chevy Bolt for example has 3 cells in a parallel arrangement in groups, then 96 of them in series to hit a nominal 365 volts, but likely a peak of 400 volts. There isn't a good way to break that up to double the voltage. If you put them all into series, you get 1210 volts.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Hmm... well, the Chevy Bolt for example has 3 cells in a parallel arrangement in groups, then 96 of them in series to hit a nominal 365 volts, but likely a peak of 400 volts. There isn't a good way to break that up to double the voltage. If you put them all into series, you get 1210 volts.

Well obviously this idea only works for packs designed for it. I don't think anyone is talking about an easy retrofit.

For the Bolt cells, a 80kWh pack with 384 cells would make it easy to split (or a 40kWh pack with 192 cells, although that is a bit small to need such quick charging).

 

[rvdput]

As a result, 250A for the CCS plug as it stands without extraordinary support would mean roughly 85 kW peak charging. I still think they need to revise to handle 400A at the plug without special support that might very well break easily.

The CCS 2.0 specification talks about 350A so if the battery pack works at 400V it means around 150 kW. For the 350A the cables and plugs need to be capable of handling that. I expect both the cable and plug to be actively cooled. Luckily the CCS plug is large enough to have room for an active cooling circuit. I don't know anything on the car side. But both charger and car have various temperature sensors that will reduce the charge speed if needed just like today.

 

[Jeff N]

It would be interesting to know if Chevy plans on building 300-400A capable wiring into the Bolt from the get go and when a CCS plug gets revised, they can offer a reasonable retrofit upgrade.

I doubt it. That's not how they roll. They are on the record for "50 kW" for the first model year Bolt but say they have validated the components to higher levels and are actively considering supporting something higher.

Kia Soul EV already claims to support "100 kW" CHAdeMO and Hyundai is reported going to support "100 kW" CCS on the Ioniq BEV late this year both using 28 kW batteries, I think. It would be kind of embarrassing if the Bolt EV didn't claim to support "100 kW" (200A) CCS when it goes on sale around the same time as the Ioniq but with more than 2x the battery size.

Of course, claiming to support "100 kW" CHAdeMO or CCS does not necessarily mean the car will charge that fast but it does tend to imply it will charge faster than it would on a "50 kW" or "60 kW" standard even if it just means the peak rate is the same but the starting rate is higher and reaches the peak rate faster because of higher amperage.

 

[techmaven]

Kia Soul EV already claims to support "100 kW" CHAdeMO and Hyundai is reported going to support "100 kW" CCS on the Ioniq BEV late this year both using 28 kW batteries, I think. It would be kind of embarrassing if the Bolt EV didn't claim to support "100 kW" (200A) CCS when it goes on sale around the same time as the Ioniq but with more than 2x the battery size.

Of course, claiming to support "100 kW" CHAdeMO or CCS does not necessarily mean the car will charge that fast but it does tend to imply it will charge faster than it would on a "50 kW" or "60 kW" standard even if it just means the peak rate is the same but the starting rate is higher and reaches the peak rate faster because of higher amperage.

Has anyone ever seen a CCS setup charge at > 200 amps? All the spec documents I've seen refer to a 200 amp max. At 350 volts or so (generously high) x 200 amps, that's 70 kW. I'd love to see a Kia Soul EV charge video showing volts and amps while hooked up to a nominal 100 kW CHAdeMO EVSE like we have for various Tesla vehicles. I'd love to see the taper curve. rvdput, do you know of such a video?

 

[Jeff N]

Has anyone ever seen a CCS setup charge at > 200 amps? All the spec documents I've seen refer to a 200 amp max. At 350 volts or so (generously high) x 200 amps, that's 70 kW. I'd love to see a Kia Soul EV charge video showing volts and amps while hooked up to a nominal 100 kW CHAdeMO EVSE like we have for various Tesla vehicles. I'd love to see the taper curve. rvdput, do you know of such a video?

Of course, there are hardly any non- Tesla "100 KW" capable cars on the road so it's unsurprising that there no charging stations. That will begin to change quickly next year.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Kia Soul EV already claims to support "100 kW" CHAdeMO and Hyundai is reported going to support "100 kW" CCS on the Ioniq BEV late this year both using 28 kW batteries, I think. It would be kind of embarrassing if the Bolt EV didn't claim to support "100 kW" (200A) CCS when it goes on sale around the same time as the Ioniq but with more than 2x the battery size.

I find that embarrassing too and I hope behind the scenes GM is building the charge port and wiring to support 100kW and then when the time comes they just announce 100kW support. 50kW doesn't make sense for a battery as large as the Bolt's.

 

[Model 3]

I'd love to see a Kia Soul EV charge video showing volts and amps while hooked up to a nominal 100 kW CHAdeMO EVSE like we have for various Tesla vehicles.

The best I can offer is this:

Image link if it does not show


It is from this article (in Norwegian): http://arcticroads.com/nyheter/mer-enn-dobler-hurtigladeeffekten/

 

[Jeff N]

The best I can offer is this:

Image link if it does not show


It is from this article (in Norwegian): http://arcticroads.com/nyheter/mer-enn-dobler-hurtigladeeffekten/

Clicking on that link just goes to the image. The correct link is:

Opens 120 kW EV charger to the public | Arctic Roads