Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) SpaceX and Boeing Developments

[e-FTW]

Good point, and one that went unmentioned in that article. Really quite embarrassing for Boeing. I think NASA is cutting them a lot of slack on that test, letting them do it without leaving the ground. But according to the article NASA does not specifically require a true in-flight abort test.

Quote: “While technically just a pad abort test, the certification objective will also validate Starliner’s ability to free itself from the Atlas V at any stage during flight should an abort be needed. However, Boeing will not perform an in-flight abort test as one was not mandated by NASA as part of the Commercial Crew Program.”

How exactly does a pad abort test “validate” that the capability will function properly “at any stage during flight”? That sounds like BS to me. I think NASA just says that because to do a real in-flight abort test is extremely expensive since the entire rocket is thrown away.

By doing the abort test during ascent SpaceX is really going above and beyond NASA’s requirements. I sure how that SpaceX can pull off a successful abort test during Max-Q! That sounds very challenging.

Excellent analysis!

That made me actually LOL.

Exactly why I am puzzled: I don't see how a ground test validates that an abort in the max-Q environment would work.
Also, NASA says they'll do an in-flight one for Orion, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[PhantomX]

I believe historically no launch program has done an in-flight about test due to cost of the booster. SpaceX definitely has an advantage of this, so they should take full advantage of it. From technical perspective though, I would think that loads from the abort sequence way exceed the aero load that it really doesn't matter if the abort is done on the pad or in flight at Max Q.

 

[Grendal]

Exactly why I am puzzled: I don't see how a ground test validates that an abort in the max-Q environment would work.
Also, NASA says they'll do an in-flight one for Orion, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How would Orion do an in-flight abort? They sure aren't using a billion dollar SLS rocket for such a thing. Using some other rocket would make the test invalid as far I am concerned.

 

[Cosmacelf]

So what is Elon’s new method for landing on Mars?

 

[mongo]

So what is Elon’s new method for landing on Mars?

BFS aerobraking then landing via engines. No more Red Dragon.

 

[Cosmacelf]

BFS aerobraking then landing via engines. No more Red Dragon.

So if a concern was how to heat shield the dragon legs for orbital re-entry heat, how did they solve that problem with the BFR payload (what’s the BFR spaceship called, again?)

 

[mongo]

So if a concern was how to heat shield the dragon legs for orbital re-entry heat, how did they solve that problem with the BFR payload (what’s the BFR spaceship called, again?)

BFS (big falcon spaceship) has the heatshield on the bottom like the shuttle. Once it slows, it rotates for vertical landing. So the legs don't interrupt the heat shield.
Check out
http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/making_life_multiplanetary-2017.pdf
Last slide has link to the simulation video.

 

[e-FTW]

How would Orion do an in-flight abort? They sure aren't using a billion dollar SLS rocket for such a thing. Using some other rocket would make the test invalid as far I am concerned.

I'm with you, hence the ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Am now excited to see the SpaceX max-Q abort test!

 

[bxr140]

Really quite embarrassing for Boeing.

It’s important that we separate personal and industry perspectives.

To wit, most do not think it’s embarassing that Boeing is doing a ground test. Some will [rightly] challenge the details, but the overall approach is not fundamentally flawed.

 

[Bobfitz1]

Quote: “While technically just a pad abort test, the certification objective will also validate Starliner’s ability to free itself from the Atlas V at any stage during flight should an abort be needed. However, Boeing will not perform an in-flight abort test as one was not mandated by NASA as part of the Commercial Crew Program.”
How exactly does a pad abort test “validate” that the capability will function properly “at any stage during flight”? That sounds like BS to me. I think NASA just says that because to do a real in-flight abort test is extremely expensive since the entire rocket is thrown away.
By doing the abort test during ascent SpaceX is really going above and beyond NASA’s requirements. I sure how that SpaceX can pull off a successful abort test during Max-Q! That sounds very challenging.

This does show NASA is guilty of 'guilding the lily' in important matters. It's puzzled me why, if NASA loves what SpaceX is doing so much,
that they seem to favor Boeing in ways designed to not fall behind SpaceX. In this case they appear to be short changing safety of astronauts on the maiden Starliner flight, at the same time as they keep tightening the safety requirements far beyond that of any spacecraft they've ever certified.
Naturally that can be explained at least partly by political pressure from the many states that suck at Boeings teet. However it occurs to me that a second reason is there is no guarantee that SpaceX inflight abort test and launch with no crew might not fail. That is a real possibility.
If they can't manage to keep Boeing moving along on the same timeline, then if SpaceX has a RUD, NASA is dependent for another year or two on Russia continuing to fly astronauts to ISS. Give how relations have deteriorated, that would put ISS and all NASA admin careers in dire jeopardy.

 

[Bobfitz1]

From Starliner update article:
"NASA has updated its Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract with Boeing to allow for the possibility of the CFT mission adding an additional crew member and extending the flight from 14 days to six months."

I would be pretty incredulous if ISS is not all set to accommodate both Dragon and Starliner capsules at the same time,
but I'll ask anyway. If not, then if the extension to 6 months gets approved and Boeing gets that crew to ISS first, SpaceX would be blocked from delivering a crew for half a year.

 

[mongo]

From Starliner update article:
"NASA has updated its Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract with Boeing to allow for the possibility of the CFT mission adding an additional crew member and extending the flight from 14 days to six months."

I would be pretty incredulous if ISS is not all set to accommodate both Dragon and Starliner capsules at the same time,
but I'll ask anyway. If not, then if the extension to 6 months gets approved and Boeing gets that crew to ISS first, SpaceX would be blocked from delivering a crew for half a year.

The first IDA (International Docking Patter) was lost with CRS-7. The second IDA was installed in 2016 (first on ISS). They built a third to give two ports on ISS, it should be launched on CRS-16 on 16 November 2018.

ISS Docking Module Relocates to Establish Second Commercial Crew Docking Port – Spaceflight101
IDA 1, 2, 3
SpaceX CRS-16 - Wikipedia

 

[Daveman]

How would Orion do an in-flight abort? They sure aren't using a billion dollar SLS rocket for such a thing. Using some other rocket would make the test invalid as far I am concerned.

Boeing and NASA (Orion) should both contract with SpaceX to use a flight-proven F9 core for their respective abort tests at MaxQ!!

 

[Grendal]

New tweet from Elon in response to the Ars Technica article about delays:
Elon Musk on Twitter
Elon:

SpaceX Crew Dragon ships to the Cape in about 3 months

Ars Technica article:
SpaceX and Boeing spacecraft may not become operational until 2020

 

[Cosmacelf]

Starliner’s issues seem more difficult to overcome than Dragon’s. On the other hand, we all know about Elon time. 3 months = how long in reality?? Gulp.

 

[Nikxice]

From the Ars Technica article, "In some abort scenarios the company has simulated, the Starliner spacecraft has tumbled. Boeing hopes to put these concerns to rest with a pad abort flight test, which should occur soon." Okay, so it's probably a great idea to only have SpaceX's Dragon 2 spacecraft, the one that doesn't tumble in abort scenarios, do the actual in-flight abort test.

 

[Grendal]

Elon Instagrammed a picture of a Dragon 2 heading in for testing.

SpaceX Crew Dragon ship in anechoic chamber for EMI testing before being sent to @NASA Plum Brook vacuum chamber

Elon Musk on Instagram: “SpaceX Crew Dragon ship in anechoic chamber for EMI testing before being sent to @NASA Plum Brook vacuum chamber”

 

[ecarfan]

Thanks, but is there a way to view that photo without having an Instagram account?

 

[mongo]

Thanks, but is there a way to view that photo without having an Instagram account?

I can see it without one.

 

[Grendal]

SpaceX Crew Dragon ship in anechoic chamber for EMI testing before being sent to @NASA Plum Brook vacuum chamber