I think it will be more like 70KWh at the wall. So $7.00. Of course charging from empty rarely happens. 1KWh into the battery requires roughly 1.15-1.2KWh at the wall. That should get you 3-4 miles, depending on speed, etc. So $0.03 - $0.04 per (real) mile. Compare that to about $0.20 per mile for gas in a comparable ICE car.
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I think it will be more like 70KWh at the wall. So $7.00. Of course charging from empty rarely happens. 1KWh into the battery requires roughly 1.15-1.2KWh at the wall. That should get you 3-4 miles, depending on speed, etc. So $0.03 - $0.04 per (real) mile. Compare that to about $0.20 per mile for gas in a comparable ICE car.
I think this is a sensible comparison:
Tesla S performance = $84,900 0-60 4.4 seconds
Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG = $88,900 0-60: 4.4 seconds
BMW M5 = $85,700 0-60: 4.4 seconds
While googling for this I stumbled onto this article: Tesla Model S Sport to rival BMW M5, 0-60 mph in 4.5 seconds where Elon claims the performance tyres can achieve an extra 20 miles range.
Tesla S performance = $84,900 0-60 4.4 seconds
Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG = $88,900 0-60: 4.4 seconds
BMW M5 = $85,700 0-60: 4.4 seconds
While googling for this I stumbled onto this article: Tesla Model S Sport to rival BMW M5, 0-60 mph in 4.5 seconds where Elon claims the performance tyres can achieve an extra 20 miles range.
As a track car, the M5 or E63 might win, but as a street car (e.g. Grand Prix), I'm quite sure that the Model S Performance wins.
I'm certain it will! Now if only the interior could be as nice as well. I hope someone makes a funny sticker making fun of those two particular models.
Even though it may be outclassed, it would be interesting to see some lap times at twisty tracks like Laguna Seca compared to the competitors. I think the model S can pull some serious lateral Gs with such a low centre of gravity. Some skid pad lateral G comparisons sure would be interesting. But not compared to BMW and Mercedes, that's too easy! Let's see some skid pad ratings compared to Ferrari and Lotus!
Even though it may be outclassed, it would be interesting to see some lap times at twisty tracks like Laguna Seca compared to the competitors. I think the model S can pull some serious lateral Gs with such a low centre of gravity. Some skid pad lateral G comparisons sure would be interesting. But not compared to BMW and Mercedes, that's too easy! Let's see some skid pad ratings compared to Ferrari and Lotus!
Citizen-T
Active Member
I heard once that you can't actually get the advertised 0-60 times out of a ICE unless you are a professional driver and get all the gear changes just right. By contrast, any Joe that has the guts to stomp on the acceleratore in a Model S Sport should be able to get all of the 4.4s they paid for.
true/false? Roadster owners, personal experience?
true/false? Roadster owners, personal experience?
No it's "unfortunately" the other way around. Timing shifts with seamless clutch systems like you get in current high end cars is so easy that it is not unusual for reviewers to achieve lower times than what the manufacturer lists. But even with a regular stick shift and clutch it's not all that hard, at least not beyond first gear.
Yeah, perhaps back in the day, but with cars these days it's fairly easy. I wouldn't be surprised though if one could get faster than advertised with the model s
This has probably been said before, but I think *there are no comparable cars*. For me, one absolutely non-negotiable feature of my new car is that it be a full battery-electric vehicle. Within that class of cars, there are only two with a range long enough to meet my needs, given the charging wasteland I live in (I don't anticipate being able to talk my destinations, which are things like doctors' offices, into installing 220v charging points in their parking lots). One of the two cars is a two-seater convertible with a tiny trunk (you know what I'm talking about), which does not meet my needs; we always have two people, and frequently are carrying four and multiple bags.
This means that, for me, the Model S is the only comparable car on the market. Show me another all-electric four-seater with a range over 120 miles and I'll start comparing.
(Edit: This is, of course, why Tesla can charge so much: no competitors.)
This means that, for me, the Model S is the only comparable car on the market. Show me another all-electric four-seater with a range over 120 miles and I'll start comparing.
(Edit: This is, of course, why Tesla can charge so much: no competitors.)
Tesla faces an aggregate demand curve composed of millions of individual demand curves. Yours is very inelastic, so Tesla could charge you a very high price and you'd still buy. Tesla cannot, however, engage in (much) price discrimination, i.e. it can't charge you one price and me another. Therefore, even as a monopolist, Tesla has to look at the overall willingness-to-pay of all potential buyers, and in that context, I think that they face very stiff competitive forces -- or, put another way, the bulk of their target audience is fairly price sensitive because of excellent current options from premium ICE vehicles and enticing future options from Infiniti et al.
Footnote re price discrimination: Tesla does, of course, engage in several forms of price discrimination. The premium on the Signature cars is one example; people who really, really want a Model S are willing to pay a premium that's unlinked from the actual market value of the car, and the Signature pricing allows Tesla to earn a few extra thousand $ in margin from these people. Similarly, it's common knowledge that margins are higher on options than on the base vehicle; this pricing (by all OEMs) is another form of price discrimination to sort consumers by higher- and lower-price elasticity (and, therefore, follow the rule for profit maximization by a monopolist, which is to charge more to price-inelastic customers).
Sorry for the essay; I'm busy avoiding doing useful things...
Yeah, I know what you mean -- but there is a big *hunk* of that market which is either not considering ICE vehicles, or willing to pay a large premium to get off of gas, and that helps Tesla's pricing power a lot. Facing a second proven battery-electric car manufacturer with lower prices available now, Tesla could be in very serious trouble, in the way I think the Tango is in trouble.
The market of potential buyers is quite differentiated, and I'm not sure if anyone's studied what percentage of Roadster buyers were "electric first" types and what percentage were "any sports car" types; and I'm sure nobody's studied this properly for the potential model S market. My unproven hunch is that the "electric mode bias" is actually quite large, and that people with some degree of it are a large percentage of the market for the model S. I think this partly because of Tesla's total lack of advertising and lack of dealerships; the only people considering a Tesla so far are people who *bothered to look into* electric cars, and were then willing to order from a small manufacturer, both hurdles that most car buyers won't make, period.
People with electric mode bias actually come in two groups, the ones happy with a plug-in hybrid, and the ones who want a pure electric. The former group is probably larger, but even the plug-in hybrid category provides relatively little competition (though I think there is some real competition there, and more coming, unlike in the pure battery-electric market, where Tesla has effectively got several years to itself).
Eventually these groups of customers with electric mode bias will all have their cars, and Tesla will be properly competing with the ICE carmakers, to an audience who doesn't care that the car is electric, but I don't expect it to happen for several years. By which point Tesla can, of course, change its prices.
Though we're resentful about it.
Well, I don't feel so bad any more, since it satisfies my really unusual special need for a polyester-free car, but that *can't* be typical.Me too.
Thanks for describing all of this stuff. I actually do know it all, but I tend to shorthand it rather than being clear. :-(
Mycroft
Life happens
Well said RB, you have the economics jargon down pat!
I think that some options have less margin than the market could actually bear because Elon/Tesla want people to choose those options.
Ex A: The panoramic roof at $1,500 is exceptionally well priced. I think they're wanting the majority of Model S cars to have this option to help it have a signature identity. People see that expanse of glass and go "wooo!".
Ex B: The performance package is only $15,000 and includes some VERY desirable options including leather, accel boost, wheels, and carbon fiber accents inside & out. Compare to Mercedes AMG upgrades and BMW 'M' upgrades. My thinking is that Elon/Tesla want to promote and maintain the Tesla brand as high performance and they do this by lowering the entrance fee for this performance and get more of them on the road with more drivers promoting them.
'course I could be totally wrong.
I think that some options have less margin than the market could actually bear because Elon/Tesla want people to choose those options.
Ex A: The panoramic roof at $1,500 is exceptionally well priced. I think they're wanting the majority of Model S cars to have this option to help it have a signature identity. People see that expanse of glass and go "wooo!".
Ex B: The performance package is only $15,000 and includes some VERY desirable options including leather, accel boost, wheels, and carbon fiber accents inside & out. Compare to Mercedes AMG upgrades and BMW 'M' upgrades. My thinking is that Elon/Tesla want to promote and maintain the Tesla brand as high performance and they do this by lowering the entrance fee for this performance and get more of them on the road with more drivers promoting them.
'course I could be totally wrong.
The scary thing is that this is actually the way I think! More reasons why one should not pursue a PhD in economics.Well said RB, you have the economics jargon down pat!
Volker.Berlin
Member
I just noticed that the upcoming BMW 3 series GT has a very similar roofline like the Model S, and frameless doors, too. But of course, it can only seat four...
Hmm, I disagree. Tiny passenger space, tiny storage. Beyond the fact that it has an electric powertrain, the similarities aren't really that strong. I agree with Mycroft's comparison to the Audi A7 (there are two that park near me at work now -- Audi really needed to have spent more time designing the back-end of that car). And at about $64k modestly equipped, it provides a good price point for comparing to the Model S.
A7:
Model S:
this would be a hard ****in choice to make
