Comparison of old MS to the new

[No2DinosaurFuel]

This comparison will be long, but hopefully someone will find it useful in their decision to getting a CPO vs new or inventory or whatnot.

Back story:
I was able to drive a P85+ as a loaner on a mini-road trip while the service center fixed some of the quality issues with my early 2016 90D.

Below are the things the 2013 P85+ had:
1) Grey Leather seats
2) Sound Studio
3) Air suspension
4) 21 inch grey turbine rims
5) Michelin Pilot tires
6) Tech Packages
7) Folded Mirrors
8) Weather package

Below for comparison is my early 2016 manufactured 90D car:
1) Grey Next Gen Seats
2) Regular Sound system
3) Air suspension
4) 19 inch slipstream rims
5) OEM GoodYear Eagle
6) Premium package
7) Weather package

Note below are my reviews and it might sound biased towards my car, but I recommend those to try out both yourself to compare.

A) Seats:
I noticed that the old leather seats were definitely not as comfortable or supportive compared to next gen seats. This is after going on a mini road trip to really see the long term comfort of the seats. There are no sides back pads bolstering your back to keep you in place. Same goes for the front bottom pad of the seats. It curved too early to give support to your upper thighs. Also the seats are flatter, not bucket like compared the Next Gen Seats. I suspect the New Premium seats are probably even better, but I have not tried to compared to my car.
----> 2016 90D wins

B) Sound Studio:
The sounds system of the P85+ seems to be inferior to the regular sound system of my 90D. In the P85+, it sounded like the sound was coming mostly from the front windshield even though I switch the equalization to center. Sure the sound was clearer because it was closer to me, but it didn't sound as good compared to my regular sound system in my 90D. So they definitely improved the sound system compared to the old cars. I now understand why so many people were disappointed with the old sound studio system. I would be too if I paid that much for that crappy sound system. Now with the new Premium sounds system of the modern cars, I don't know, but it might be better than the standard sounds I assume.
----> 2016 90D wins

C) Steering controls:
This one might be because I am more use to my control stalk compared to the old, but Tesla did shift things around. The cruise/AP on my 90D is on the bottom below the turn signal stalk. In the P85+ the turn signal stalk was on the bottom and lower. It made activating the turn signal and cruise control more difficult. I eventually got use to it, but it was never normal. All my previous cars have been in the left side position while the P85+ was closer to the bottom. Personally I like my 90D control stalks better. They are in a more natural position compared to other cars I've owned. Finally the park/drive/reverse stalk seems cheaper quality compared to the 90D.
----> 2016 90D wins

D) AWD vs RWD:
I know this point will get a lot of flack from RWD owners, but it is what it is. My loaner period was during a rainstorm so I was able to test the limits of the tire tractions. On my AWD, I would never get slippage on wet even near full open throttle. On the P85+, I was get slippage almost right away with any spirited acceleration. Luckily Tesla has great stability control so I was able to control the car during those moments. AWD is definitely better in wet weather.
----> 2016 90D wins

E) Road Noise:
This one might be subjective, but I think even if you factor in the wheels, it would not be that bad. I notice the cabin is significantly noisier at higher speeds compared to my 90D. The sounds comes from both the wind and road. The road might be attributed to the 21 turbine rims and the Michelin tires, but the wind is definitely not. I suspect the P85+ is not as sealed as my 90D.
----> 2016 90D wins

F) Motor Noise:
This is where the P85+ sort have win. The motor of the P85+ is quieter and this is because it is in the rear and I am sitting in the front. If I were to sit back there, I would hear the motor whine too. However comparing apples to apples. I would hear the front motor whine on my 90D under acceleration. However, under hard acceleration, I would hear a louder motor whine at 40mph+ in the P85+ compared to my 90D. So it's a toss up. It is quieter if you are smoothly accelerating. But it would be noisier if you do hard acceleration pass 40mph.
----> Draw

G) Frunk space:
This one is a given win to the P85+. There was definitely more space in frunk compared to my 90D. But honestly I never use my frunk because of the cavernous space in the trunk. So for me this is really a moot point. I usually just use the Frunk as a show piece.
----> 2013 P85+ wins

H) Supercharging:
I don't have enough evidence of this, but I am sure you guys can find threads on this. I notice that my 90D would taper to around 100KW at 45% SOC. The P85+ was down to 70KW at the same SOC. The P85+ started at 105KW charging but quickly tapered to the 60KW level during the charged. I left when I was around 65% charge. But point is the new 90D definitely charge faster and recovers miles faster compared to the P85+
----> 2016 90D wins

I) Efficiency and Range:
This one is probably obvious but the range of the 90D is definitely higher than the P85+. The car started at 225 at 90% and my 90D would get that range at 80% charge. Moreover, it does seems like the efficiency of my 90D is better than the P85+, but that might be due to the 21 inch rim and Michelin tires vs the 19 inch and Goodyear tires. On a similar trip, my 90D would get around 300Wh/mi. But the P85+ would get 330Wh/mi
----> 2016 90D wins

J) Weather packages:
It turns out not all weather packages are made equal. Just like the Sound studio of the old vs the premium sound of the new. I suspect it is the same here. The old weather packages didn't have the heated steering wheel. Mine did.
----> 2016 90D wins

K) Overall build quality and finish:
This one is a toss up, but I think it favors my 90D more. There were a few quality issues with my 90D, but I notice similar ones in the P85+. i.e. creaks and rattles. The SC was nice enough to fix those for me on my 90D. I do notice the materials are much better on the 90D compared to the P85+. The P85+ seems to have more plastic compared to my car. Also the lack of the center console made the center space really useless IMO. Sure you have a lot of space there with the Yacht, but all those things will be flying around when you do spirited acceleration. Overall because of the fit and finish of the 90D, I would give the 90D the win.
----> 2016 90D wins

L) Issues:
I am not sure if this is because of the old cars quality issues compared to the new. But my service loaner had a bad driver door handle. I could not open the door from the outside. I would have to open the back or passenger doors and open the driver doors from the inside. The auto-liftgate also was making grinding noises when opening and closing compared to my 90D. Again it might be because of the age of the car. But those are the little things. Maybe my 90D would exhibit these problems when it ages, but I am hoping they have made the later car with better reliability track.
----> 2016 90D wins

M) Price:
I don't know how much Tesla would sell this P85+ CPO, but I suspect it would be lower than my car.
----> 2013 P85+ wins

Overall IMO, I am happy I didn't snag a 2012-2014 CPO even at around $55K price. Because I got my car during the last quarter clearance run, I was able to get my car for around $25K more than the CPO after factoring tax credits. Considering most people who buy CPO are looking for the long run, I would happy pay that $25K for all the pros of my 2016 90D. Now if you never experienced a Tesla before, I am sure the CPO would feel light years ahead of all the ICE cars you are replacing. But now that I have experienced a more refined Model S, I will surely NOT buy a 2012-2014 CPOs... unless they are going for low $40K for the 85s.

 

[ChadS]

Thanks for the detailed comparison, No2. I am sure it is helpful to people trying to decide what car to purchase.

As cars (old or new) and preferences vary, other comparisons will of course be different. There are a couple more comparisons in THIS thread.

 

[BYT_P1837]

I went from the Signature P85 to the 90D I picked up yesterday. Already paid a visit to an SC locally and I have to say the above is spot on! Well written and analyzed sir!

 

[Ulmo]

This comparison will be long, but hopefully someone will find it useful in their decision to getting a CPO vs new or inventory or whatnot.

...

A) Seats:
I noticed that the old leather seats were definitely not as comfortable or supportive compared to next gen seats. This is after going on a mini road trip to really see the long term comfort of the seats. There are no sides back pads bolstering your back to keep you in place. Same goes for the front bottom pad of the seats. It curved too early to give support to your upper thighs. Also the seats are flatter, not bucket like compared the Next Gen Seats. I suspect the New Premium seats are probably even better, but I have not tried to compared to my car.
----> 2016 90D wins

Thank you, I do find this useful.

Where can I get some of those old seats? Will they swap in easily with my cloth seats in my new late 2016 car? Those old seats sound fantastic! (The side supports are uncomfortable and injurious to me, which is why I got cloth.)

B) Sound Studio:
The sounds system of the P85+ seems to be inferior to the regular sound system of my 90D. In the P85+, it sounded like the sound was coming mostly from the front windshield even though I switch the equalization to center.

I get this same bad behavior in my late 2016 with Ultra High Fidelity Sound. I suspect something wrong with my installation, so I'm going in for service first week of January to have it fixed. I find this mixture of symptoms odd: perhaps there's something wrong with the early system and my late car that is common, and doesn't have anything to do with software or sound version -- such as a loose or badly done cable or speaker.

Sure the sound was clearer because it was closer to me, but it didn't sound as good compared to my regular sound system in my 90D. So they definitely improved the sound system compared to the old cars. I now understand why so many people were disappointed with the old sound studio system. I would be too if I paid that much for that crappy sound system. Now with the new Premium sounds system of the modern cars, I don't know, but it might be better than the standard sounds I assume.
----> 2016 90D wins

Hmmm. More data -- thank you.

C) Steering controls:
This one might be because I am more use to my control stalk compared to the old, but Tesla did shift things around. The cruise/AP on my 90D is on the bottom below the turn signal stalk. In the P85+ the turn signal stalk was on the bottom and lower. It made activating the turn signal and cruise control more difficult. I eventually got use to it, but it was never normal. All my previous cars have been in the left side position while the P85+ was closer to the bottom. Personally I like my 90D control stalks better. They are in a more natural position compared to other cars I've owned. Finally the park/drive/reverse stalk seems cheaper quality compared to the 90D.
----> 2016 90D wins

I am absolutely sure I would agree with you if I didn't own a 2005 Mercedes E500 w211 chasis for over half a decade. As it is, I am still missing the "incorrect" layout of the MBZ, since discontinued by both MB and Tesla. Here's why, but no one cares, because it's just gone and never returning likely: when turning the wheel, my hands are already traveling around, so finding the turn signal stalk lower down was fine for me, and I had no problem with it. If I was relaxed in long distance freeway mode, I could reach my hand up from a resting state without having to reach very high up, just to switch lanes around some truck or Prius type event. Similarly, if I was then actively engaged in dealing with a speed adjustment (think truck, Prius again), then I'm already disengaging speed settings, resetting, them, etc., and I found that I naturally had my hands up right near the cruise stalk. I know it's dangerous, but I would reach through sometimes to it from the wheel while on straight freeways (dangerous because if a tire blows or I hit a pothole it could snap my hand off). I think it was less dangerous for me, since I would very accurately adjust the speed control without having to reorient my entire sitting position to be able to reach around and fiddle with some hard to reach control like it is now on my new Tesla. It is positively annoying every time I have to adjust speed on the Tesla compared to the old MB. And I find it highly distracting. So, in effect, "I would agree, but I don't." At one point, I very nearly almost thought that I would prefer the stupid Detroit way of putting the cruise controls on the steering wheel, but I quickly brought myself back from that silly thought (I hate that generally).

D) AWD vs RWD:
I know this point will get a lot of flack from RWD owners, but it is what it is. My loaner period was during a rainstorm so I was able to test the limits of the tire tractions. On my AWD, I would never get slippage on wet even near full open throttle. On the P85+, I was get slippage almost right away with any spirited acceleration. Luckily Tesla has great stability control so I was able to control the car during those moments. AWD is definitely better in wet weather.
----> 2016 90D wins

I spent the extra $5,000 for AWD, and so far, loving it. It is definitely better than my old RWD MB by many times. I drove my 60D in mountains, during rain, etc., and having nothing else to compare it to, I can't disagree with you, and would probably agree if I did have comparisons. The AWD is definitely worth it compared to my MB without AWD. I do have one problem, that when I'm turning, the car pulls the wrong way a little if I accelerate. It pulls to the right a bit. It's the same direction it pulls if I don't hold the wheel straight on a straight section where I'm not accelerating. It might be a slight misalignment. I'm surprised how much the AWD amplifies this.

E) Road Noise:
This one might be subjective, but I think even if you factor in the wheels, it would not be that bad. I notice the cabin is significantly noisier at higher speeds compared to my 90D. The sounds comes from both the wind and road. The road might be attributed to the 21 turbine rims and the Michelin tires, but the wind is definitely not. I suspect the P85+ is not as sealed as my 90D.
----> 2016 90D wins

I have no comparison point. My Tesla is definitely very noisy compared to my MB. I couldn't imagine it being even worse. I'm glad I waited, if true. I might start the artsci teardowns for sound proofing at some point if I end up keeping this bumpy beast. I'm thinking of farming it out to Tesla Network maybe, if that comes soon enough (hurry up California politicians!), so if that's true, I'd just leave it less good, since I could more easily have Service just fix standard setups.

F) Motor Noise:
This is where the P85+ sort have win. The motor of the P85+ is quieter and this is because it is in the rear and I am sitting in the front. If I were to sit back there, I would hear the motor whine too. However comparing apples to apples. I would hear the front motor whine on my 90D under acceleration. However, under hard acceleration, I would hear a louder motor whine at 40mph+ in the P85+ compared to my 90D. So it's a toss up. It is quieter if you are smoothly accelerating. But it would be noisier if you do hard acceleration pass 40mph.
----> Draw

I must be the only one who doesn't mind the electric motor noise. I get worse road and ICE noise inside my S from the outside than electric motor noise. Maybe I'm in the honeymoon period of my motor still being relatively silent, and it'll vibrate loose soon enough, then I will complain like everyone else. For now, motor noise is not a concern for me.

G) Frunk space:
This one is a given win to the P85+. There was definitely more space in frunk compared to my 90D. But honestly I never use my frunk because of the cavernous space in the trunk. So for me this is really a moot point. I usually just use the Frunk as a show piece.
----> 2013 P85+ wins

I have to agree with you: I think of the Frunk as a much improved crumple zone, and can't come to think of anything I'd put there that wouldn't impede the crumple zone function and at the same time I would want to access at the same frequency as a dangerous to close hood piece would allow. I'm thinking once a month type thing. Charging cords are too hard for me to consider crumple worthy and so far I'm finding I use almost all of them more often than would indicate putting them in Frunk (I got every conceivable conversion and extension from Tesla and an outside provider of Tesla cords), and blankets I access via flopping down the rear seat backs through the trunk, so in both cases, I haven't yet found that fluffy 6x a year item to keep up there. (This morning, I'm going to put 3 sand bags up there in a separate experiment to try to stop bumpiness, but that is not related.)

H) Supercharging:
I don't have enough evidence of this, but I am sure you guys can find threads on this. I notice that my 90D would taper to around 100KW at 45% SOC. The P85+ was down to 70KW at the same SOC. The P85+ started at 105KW charging but quickly tapered to the 60KW level during the charged. I left when I was around 65% charge. But point is the new 90D definitely charge faster and recovers miles faster compared to the P85+
----> 2016 90D wins

Absolutely, Tesla has been improving battery capabilities, so far. The newer and the bigger the battery and the better the battery contacts, generally speaking, the better the charging. My "60" is actually a newer "75", so it charges slightly faster than an old "60". If I had a "100" battery, it would charge around 27% faster even than it already does, I'm guessing. (Also, I could drive 48% further -- that would be nice.) In my case, I've started my experience of actual Tesla driving doing pretty frequent top-ups at local EVGO stations (and did go ahead and get the $0.10/minute $15/month plan (is ~ $0.20/kWh + the $15/month; some locations get more than 30kW, like Whole Foods on the Alameda in San Jose gets me 40kW, so that's $0.15/kWh) to make certain I don't fall short of SuperCharge locations); it's basically a way to fill the gaps of not actually having a >=85 battery, that most the SuperCharger spacing was originally set up for. (I almost ran out during the first road trip I took, and it was a whole ordeal. I learned you can't charge a car with HVAC on using 120VAC 12amp in 32º weather. I learned Level 2 is better than nothing, and you can heat yourself up while charging, if you want to. I learned Chademo is way way way better than Level 2. I learned EVGO Chademo stations are often broken (that was the big problem to begin with). I learned SuperCharger is just way way better than EVGO & Chademo. I try to always go to a SuperCharger on any long distance trip, now, and go often as I can, but to try to stretch my distance to put the long SuperCharger stays after I've already done a visit or appointment (so I don't keep them waiting). I learned a lot.)

I) Efficiency and Range:
This one is probably obvious but the range of the 90D is definitely higher than the P85+. The car started at 225 at 90% and my 90D would get that range at 80% charge. Moreover, it does seems like the efficiency of my 90D is better than the P85+, but that might be due to the 21 inch rim and Michelin tires vs the 19 inch and Goodyear tires. On a similar trip, my 90D would get around 300Wh/mi. But the P85+ would get 330Wh/mi
----> 2016 90D wins

While nice to hear, I think that's noise, isn't it? Batteries degrade, different batteries are different, etc. My 60 starts at 100%, and within a few miles is down to 88%, and within a dozen miles after that, has hit 78% or so. Then, it creeps down in battery state of charge from there all the way down to 0% without the big jumps from 100% to 80%. I think it's just a battery personality, and with jumps like that, I can't see worrying about a few % here and there. They are fantastic batteries, but they are being pushed to their limits.

J) Weather packages:
It turns out not all weather packages are made equal. Just like the Sound studio of the old vs the premium sound of the new. I suspect it is the same here. The old weather packages didn't have the heated steering wheel. Mine did.
----> 2016 90D wins

That must be a not-California thing. I've never thought "oh I wish I had a heated steering wheel", since I was advised it's an easy way to save $1,000. We've had actual freezing weather this week, like as in it gets down into the 30s --- even, near 33º and sometimes even 32º (for real! ), and I park my car outside (pretty much everywhere), and yet, the steering wheel has never been too cold. Everyone taught me that preconditioning the car on cold days works fine, and it does, and I find this to be a vast improvement over my MB (although I already baked it into my expectations for a few years ever since I thought "someday I'll have that preconditioning thing, someday" every time it was too cold or too hot), although it leaves the trunk unconditioned (not a good thing in my book). Big Tesla win either way, for me.

K) Overall build quality and finish:
This one is a toss up, but I think it favors my 90D more. There were a few quality issues with my 90D, but I notice similar ones in the P85+. i.e. creaks and rattles. The SC was nice enough to fix those for me on my 90D. I do notice the materials are much better on the 90D compared to the P85+. The P85+ seems to have more plastic compared to my car. Also the lack of the center console made the center space really useless IMO. Sure you have a lot of space there with the Yacht, but all those things will be flying around when you do spirited acceleration. Overall because of the fit and finish of the 90D, I would give the 90D the win.
----> 2016 90D wins

Good to hear. I actually lucked out with creaks and rattles. I have none. Actually, thanks for mentioning this: this is absolutely one big winner for me. I should take stock in this. I do have holes, though, where outside weather and noise come in. I'm going to make sure they fix one in my first service visit that lets rain and wash water into the driver footwell.

Overall IMO, I am happy I didn't snag a 2012-2014 CPO even at around $55K price. Because I got my car during the last quarter clearance run, I was able to get my car for around $25K more than the CPO after factoring tax credits. Considering most people who buy CPO are looking for the long run, I would happy pay that $25K for all the pros of my 2016 90D. Now if you never experienced a Tesla before, I am sure the CPO would feel light years ahead of all the ICE cars you are replacing. But now that I have experienced a more refined Model S, I will surely NOT buy a 2012-2014 CPOs... unless they are going for low $40K for the 85s.

I have to agree. This changes when Teslas are 10 years old and they start going into the next level down, the $10K-$30K range. There's going to be a whole new type of owner then. I'm looking forward to how the parts and service models will change to handle that. Maybe Tesla is chomping at the bit to "decertify" these cars so they are no longer SuperCharger eligible, and that's why they don't sell parts to outsiders. Then what happens when cars that never had free SuperCharging start to go out of warranty, and they are junk just because Tesla won't sell parts? Then Tesla will be known for building cars that "don't last long", and that will happen before Model 3 starts to turn this same age. This will force Tesla to deal with this issue, around 2027 - 2028 or so, probably sooner.

 

[Nick B]

Thanks for the informative post. Maybe in the US the price difference between a used P85 and a barely used 90D is 25k but here in Canada last time I saw it was a difference of around 35k (85k vs 120k) plus taxes (15% in Qc). I'm obviously glad they're improving the new cars as eventually I plan on swapping myself but I personally could not afford that higher price. I'm expecting that the 90D will loose quite some value in the next 2 years so overall really happy to see the improvements. Thanks again!

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Thanks for the informative post. Maybe in the US the price difference between a used P85 and a barely used 90D is 25k but here in Canada last time I saw it was a difference of around 35k (85k vs 120k) plus taxes (15% in Qc). I'm obviously glad they're improving the new cars as eventually I plan on swapping myself but I personally could not afford that higher price. I'm expecting that the 90D will loose quite some value in the next 2 years so overall really happy to see the improvements. Thanks again!

Keep in mind the $25K factors in the EV incentives here in CA, USA which comes out to be $10K. So it is $35K in price difference but only $25 after the incentives. Again this is when they have the quarterly push to sell all the old stuff. I don't see the same anymore now. So it might be well over $35K even after the $10K incentives between the AP 2.0 90D vs a P85.

 

[Mike K]

Unless someone can offer me some qualitative data with respect to nicer interior materials being used on the newer cars, I'm going to respectfully disagree. People LOVE to justify their purchases, especially when they're jumping from one car to seemingly an identical one with upgrades and this is a common claim but it just doesn't have any basis in reality.

I've owned a 5700 VIN, an 18,000 VIN, my current P85D and Tesla put me in a brand new P90DL facelift loaner not too long ago. My 5700 VIN car had me in no fewer than 6 or 7 service loaners. I've driven them all. There's no discernible difference in interior materials throughout the production run. It just isn't there. Perhaps the difference people are noticing is that some cars have the extended leather but that's an option, not an improvement in materials . My 2015 feels no nicer inside than my super-early production S85 and no worse than the brand new P90DL. The NextGen seats are obviously nicer but other than that, you can't poke at any specific surface and say that it's nicer than the early build cars, at least not that I can see.

Now what did surprise me is that the newer all wheel drive cars tend to ride better over rough surfaces, especially when they go over bumps in a turn. These tend to upset the rear wheel drive cars and make them feel as if they're hopping sideways. Not so in the all wheel drive.

I was fully expecting to hate the all wheel drive setup on the S because most AWD cars tend to understeer. I was pleasantly surprised at how well dialed in Tesla has the system, likely because they can change front/ rear wheel bias on the fly.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thank you for an interesting thread, No2DinosaurFuel. Appreciate it!

There's no discernible difference in interior materials throughout the production run. It just isn't there. Perhaps the difference people are noticing is that some cars have the extended leather but that's an option, not an improvement in materials .

Yes, apparently No2DinosaurFuel did not have Extended Leather on his P85+, but does have the Premium Upgrades Package on his 90D. This would explain this... It is not a materials upgrade, it is a feature option (that has been moved from Premium Leather to Premium Upgrades Package).

The P85+ seems to have more plastic compared to my car.

Some other notes:

Cruise and blinker stalk were reversed in summer 2014, some non-AP cars came with it too.

Heated steering wheel was added to the cold-weather package around the P85D unveil in later 2014.

 

[Nick B]

Keep in mind the $25K factors in the EV incentives here in CA, USA which comes out to be $10K. So it is $35K in price difference but only $25 after the incentives. Again this is when they have the quarterly push to sell all the old stuff. I don't see the same anymore now. So it might be well over $35K even after the $10K incentives between the AP 2.0 90D vs a P85.

Interesting to know... we have a rebate of 7,5k but it only applies to new cars with less than 10 000 kilometers... which is rare to find in the CPO Tesla website (when there's a "new" car, with less than 10k in kilometers the CPO section, the price is much higher).