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Comprehensive USB Bug List

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#421
supratachophobia said:
I'm curious what constitutes a 'hard drive'. My understanding is that a USB enclosure can parent issue simply "USB mass storage" just like a thumb drive. I'm wondering if power draw has anything to do with it? A 2TB would be a spindle drive as opposed to an SSD. And as of .19, my SSD in USB 3.0 enclosure is still working.
Click to expand...
Power draw is part of the USB spec. Tesla does document the ports as being USB 2.0. I'm not a guru in such things, but just scanned through some USB spec info... While things like keyboards and joysticks are two specific device classes (Human and Physical Interface Devices) within the USB Spec itself, and it looks like it's relativity easy to say exclude support for them as a group like Tesla did earlier, there is just one device class (Mass Storage) that is for all USB flash drives, camera media cards, and external drives combined. ...but from a programming perspective, it appears there are then different protocols that have to be enabled to support all of the different types of mass storage devices the hardware standard can accept. Get the difference?

If I were to guess, what Tesla did was implement what was simple (USB Flash Drives), or again, what they thought would serve the purpose without really considering everything real owners are using today. I bet Tesla simply didn't go to the trouble of adding the additional software protocols needed to support external drives in the 8.0 rewrite, perhaps in part because of other somewhat deprecated parts of today's OS. Perhaps that will come in with the underlying OS upgrade Elon referenced would be happening in December -- it's any of our guess. For those using USB HDD, we can only hope. OTOH, I could be a skeptic and suggest HDD will never be supported again... IIRC, one of my former vehicles (just can't remember which one) specifically called out HDD not being supported in their Owners manual. I didn't think anything of that at the time, but now I guess maybe I have an inkling as to one reason why that could have been back in the day.
 
#422
I'm in the same boat as @doctorwho with respect to HDD usage. My 1TB Toshiba portable drive (physical, magnetic storage - NOT SSD) with 50K tracks served me well for years until 8.0 came along. It finished a full scan ONE time after the firmware update to 8.0 (2.36.108). However, the drive proved to be unusable with all the scrolling so I went through the trouble of reorganizing the files into a flat structure as recommended in the USB workaround thread in hopes of regaining some functionality. The drive has never gotten past 50% scan in the weeks since I re-installed it despite turning OFF energy savings as others have suggested.

Note that I do not have AP and this is the same drive that worked previously with energy savings ON. If Tesla is DISABLING features that worked in prior firmware versions they MUST communicate it. I've read the release notes and it's not there. I sent a message to Tesla service and their response contained no hint of the change. Thanks to @doctorwho for shedding light on the extremely frustrating mystery!
 
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#423
jcadman22 said:
...If Tesla is DISABLING features that worked in prior firmware versions they MUST communicate it. I've read the release notes and it's not there....
Click to expand...
To me, the first problem is Tesla has elected to never officially document what is or is not supported regarding USB, as every other major mfgr does with a set of specs in their Owner's Manual.

I agree, better communication is needed as Tesla implements changes, but honestly, Tesla needs to start with providing owners a basic set of supported USB environments and limitations, vs. Owners simply trying things to see what does and does not work, to only one day become disappointed as Tesla makes changes and/or tightens-up their code base. Unfortunately some owners like yourself, @doctorwho, and likely others have hit a wall with 8.0 because of this new USB HDD limitation. I at least was able to come up with several workarounds to get my 6100 tracks that worked with 7.1 to do so again with 8.0. I hesitate to go much above that number given my own experience, even with what other Owners are presently reporting they can do. I believe it's only a matter of time until Tesla does have to set tighter constraints on what some of us have been able to do with USB Media in the past -- especially as Tesla continues to improve functionality that will certainly consume more of the fixed memory each of our MCU/CIDs have, and tries to produce a higher-quality end-result for Infotainment across their line.
 
#424
jcadman22 said:
I'm in the same boat as @doctorwho with respect to HDD usage. My 1TB Toshiba portable drive (physical, magnetic storage - NOT SSD) with 50K tracks served me well for years until 8.0 came along. It finished a full scan ONE time after the firmware update to 8.0 (2.36.108). However, the drive proved to be unusable with all the scrolling so I went through the trouble of reorganizing the files into a flat structure as recommended in the USB workaround thread in hopes of regaining some functionality. The drive has never gotten past 50% scan in the weeks since I re-installed it despite turning OFF energy savings as others have suggested.

Note that I do not have AP and this is the same drive that worked previously with energy savings ON. If Tesla is DISABLING features that worked in prior firmware versions they MUST communicate it. I've read the release notes and it's not there. I sent a message to Tesla service and their response contained no hint of the change. Thanks to @doctorwho for shedding light on the extremely frustrating mystery!
Click to expand...

OK, then this is truly a puzzle. Either 1.5 amps is not enough to run your portable spindle hard drives, or the controllers in place are different and therefore what @BertL said about the different protocols for different types of access would apply (is he taking about MTP or PTP, the way Android configures usb connections?).

I can confirm at this moment that a "Nexstar CX usb 3.0 enclosure" is working with a evo 850 256gb SSD.
 
#425
supratachophobia said:
OK, then this is truly a puzzle. Either 1.5 amps is not enough to run your portable spindle hard drives, or the controllers in place are different and therefore what @BertL said about the different protocols for different types of access would apply (is he taking about MTP or PTP, the way Android configures usb connections?).

I can confirm at this moment that a "Nexstar CX usb 3.0 enclosure" is working with a evo 850 256gb SSD.
Click to expand...
My drive definitely worked before 8.0 so I don't think a hardware problem re. getting enough power. So leaning towards a protocol change or Tesla changed something about their memory management that it no longer handles the indexing of many files.

I've got a 128GB Sandisk mini USB stick that is working fine so I'm leaning towards switching to a 1TB SSD but I'd like to hear from others with large collections before I spend $300 on yet another new drive.
 
#426
TexasEV said:
I don't care what they call it as long as they made USB usable again.
For the next improvement maybe they'll put the battery meter back in the center of the IC in pre-AP cars as we had until version 7?
Click to expand...

Yes, this is good news. Tried to listen to USB music again today and gave up--it's just unusable.

Now I wonder how long I have to wait to get the update. The MCU reboots are getting old.
 
#427
jcadman22 said:
My drive definitely worked before 8.0 so I don't think a hardware problem re. getting enough power. So leaning towards a protocol change or Tesla changed something about their memory management that it no longer handles the indexing of many files.

I've got a 128GB Sandisk mini USB stick that is working fine so I'm leaning towards switching to a 1TB SSD but I'd like to hear from others with large collections before I spend $300 on yet another new drive.
Click to expand...
My greatest suggestion is just be careful with large collections ;)
  • If you can follow all the discussion here and in the other couple related 8.0 Media Player threads, it seems problematic for some people the more tracks they have... likely a combination of factors in your MS as well as in directory/filenaming/structure and actual tag contents within your library.
  • I started in my MS before taking delivery, having built a USB Stick that had most of the tracks I used to maintain on iPod Classics in my former vehicles... I knew I'd have to have some amount less of my music in my MS than I had for years because a Tesla didn't support native hardwired iPods. I unfortunately didn't realize how much that would become until after delivery. Within a week after delivery, I began cutting back on that number because of the extensive scan times (40 min+ last Fall), and situations even today where MS will (unnecessarially) rescan my library when I'm out running errands, every time I stop and get back into my MS -- meaning I can't listen to my own music until that process completes. Rescan takes roughly 50% of the time of an initial scan, but increases if you're actively driving your vehicle. Perhaps you don't care about that and are OK with listening to silence or something else when the situation present itself. I prefer to do neither, and really like my own music most of the time if a I can make that happen, hence my reasons to cut back on the tracks I maintain in my vehicle based on the time it takes to scan/rescan.
  • First thing I did was eliminate 1-star tracks -- effectively the ones I consider duds in albums I own and I generally skip if aim listening closely to music being played
  • Next, I split out Holiday Music. I listen to that almost exclusively from Thankgiving to 12/25, so it's now on its own unique stick and cut out 10-15%+ (yes, I have a lot) from what I listen to the other 11 months of the year. That was easy. If you have sections of your music that are not commonly listened-to, perhaps there is a carrot there for you as well.
  • I then put the remaining tracks in my MS (just over 15K IIRC), noted scan time, and began reducing by 1K tracks at a time... landing on today's roughly 6K tracks, as my balance point having sufficient variety with something that will work in my MS without too many annoyances and aggravations.
In the end, only you can decide how reality important it is to have a huge library available all the time in your MS, given it will take more time to scan/rescan the more tracks you have. It's also likely IMO that the number of tracks that are possible to be accessed today with 8.0 is less than with 7.1, and as Tesla implements things like 100% abiding by DISCNUMBER and TRACKNUMBER across the interface, that may well further reduce the theoretical max tracks anyone can have as well. If you decide that bigger is what you want, I'd purchase my new USB device when I have 2-3 days dedicated time available to build the device, and start with perhaps 7K tracks, adding 1K at a time, testing it in my MS with each additional 1K until you get to where you wanted to go. That way, if you find your MS has an upper limit below what you anticipated, you could return your SSD and perhaps just go to a larger capacity flash drive that will likely be less problematic in the long haul. One other thing you could consider is compressing some of your audio source if physical space is your issue... even if you're a FLAC Lossless kinda guy, you could spend the compute power to try and further compress Lossless content without impacting quality very much. Tools like dBpoweramp can give that a go if you wanted to explore the possibilities.

Many options. Good luck with your decisions. I for one look forward to hearing your outcome.
 
#428
jcadman22 said:
I'm in the same boat as @doctorwho
Note that I do not have AP and this is the same drive that worked previously with energy savings ON. If Tesla is DISABLING features that worked in prior firmware versions they MUST communicate it. I've read the release notes and it's not there. I sent a message to Tesla service and their response contained no hint of the change. Thanks to @doctorwho for shedding light on the extremely frustrating mystery!
Click to expand...

Here's my response from Tesla service



Thank you for contacting Tesla Motors, Inc. and for the feedback provided.

Unfortunately you are not the only customer that is not fully satisfied with the redesign of the Media Player App User Interface.

The reason you can no longer use the external HDD is most likely that this does not concern a flash drive.

Only USB-carriers using Flash Drive technology can be used via the USB ports after firmware update 8.0.

We know several fixes are on the way to ameliorate the interface of the media player app.

Specific timing and content are unavailable at this moment but please rest assured we will do our outmost best in order to have the Media player made more user friendly as soon as possible.

Kind Regards / Met vriendelijke groet,

It's important for me to have a large library as much of my driving occurs on routes with less than full 3G reception and without full reception I get problems that makes Spotify and tune in unusable. FM reception and quality on the car is so poor that I avoid it
 
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#429
jcadman22 said:
My drive definitely worked before 8.0 so I don't think a hardware problem re. getting enough power. So leaning towards a protocol change or Tesla changed something about their memory management that it no longer handles the indexing of many files.

I've got a 128GB Sandisk mini USB stick that is working fine so I'm leaning towards switching to a 1TB SSD but I'd like to hear from others with large collections before I spend $300 on yet another new drive.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I mean that maybe Tesla is now limiting the output of the USB ports via software in v8 so that they can no longer sufficiently power a spindle USB drive enclosure. I do recall hearing about them adjusting the output via software in the past, i think. So it would not be unprecedented.
 
#430
jcadman22 said:
My drive definitely worked before 8.0 so I don't think a hardware problem re. getting enough power. So leaning towards a protocol change or Tesla changed something about their memory management that it no longer handles the indexing of many files.
Click to expand...

How are your files arranged on the HDD? We know that the first few version of 8 couldn't handle a lot of files in a single folder. That it works much better with an artist/album folder structure so that no one folder contains "too many" items.
 
#433
supratachophobia said:
It's gotta be low power. I'm going to go test max USB power right now.
Click to expand...

Ok kiddos, I think I might have gotten somewhere. Using my Tesla provided, right-angle, micro-usb adapter, with a micro to USB C adapter, plugged into my PNY 2.1 amp 12v cig lighter adapter, I get 1500ma max charge rate available according to the Android app Ampre. Now, when I use a straight up legit USB Type-C cable from the PNY to the phone.... I still get a max charge rate of 1500ma. I should mention that the One Plus 2 is limited to 1.5amps unless you are using their fast-charger and then you can go up to 1.85amps.

Now, when I try BOTH cables on the car USB ports, I receive, wait for it.... 1500ma max charge reading for less than a second before it drops down to a consistent 500ma. This is in direct conflict with the readings with the readings I took (Nexus 5x, supports fast charging) and documented back in July, here: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1640557/

The readings back then did not start out at 1500ma and then drop off like they did today.

Therefore, after a few quick Google searches, USB spindle laptop hard drives (5400rpm, like the Toshiba Canvio) look to pull 900ma and up. But some can pull as little as 500ma, except during power up where it peaks above. 7200rpm drives take that all the way past 1amp. SSD's on the other hand are generally under 500ma. Keep in mind that you have the overhead of the controller to contend with as well as the draw of the drive itself. And I should note that typical USB 2.0 ports on computers are generally 500ma output. Conclusion, v8 has limited the output of the USB ports either accidently or by design.
 
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#434
supratachophobia said:
Ok kiddos, I think I might have gotten somewhere. Using my Tesla provided, right-angle, micro-usb adapter, with a micro to USB C adapter, plugged into my PNY 2.1 amp 12v cig lighter adapter, I get 1500ma max charge rate available according to the Android app Ampre. Now, when I use a straight up legit USB Type-C cable from the PNY to the phone.... I still get a max charge rate of 1500ma. I should mention that the One Plus 2 is limited to 1.5amps unless you are using their fast-charger and then you can go up to 1.85amps.

Now, when I try BOTH cables on the car USB ports, I receive, wait for it.... 1500ma max charge reading for less than a second before it drops down to a consistent 500ma. This is in direct conflict with the readings with the readings I took (Nexus 5x, supports fast charging) and documented back in July, here: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1640557/

The readings back then did not start out at 1500ma and then drop off like they did today.

Therefore, after a few quick Google searches, USB spindle laptop hard drives (5400rpm, like the Toshiba Canvio) look to pull 900ma and up. But some can pull as little as 500ma, except during power up where it peaks above. 7200rpm drives take that all the way past 1amp. SSD's on the other hand are generally under 500ma. Keep in mind that you have the overhead of the controller to contend with as well as the draw of the drive itself. And I should note that typical USB 2.0 ports on computers are generally 500ma output. Conclusion, v8 has limited the output of the USB ports either accidently or by design.
Click to expand...
Good work!
 
#435
supratachophobia said:
Ok kiddos, I think I might have gotten somewhere. Using my Tesla provided, right-angle, micro-usb adapter, with a micro to USB C adapter, plugged into my PNY 2.1 amp 12v cig lighter adapter, I get 1500ma max charge rate available according to the Android app Ampre. Now, when I use a straight up legit USB Type-C cable from the PNY to the phone.... I still get a max charge rate of 1500ma. I should mention that the One Plus 2 is limited to 1.5amps unless you are using their fast-charger and then you can go up to 1.85amps.

Now, when I try BOTH cables on the car USB ports, I receive, wait for it.... 1500ma max charge reading for less than a second before it drops down to a consistent 500ma. This is in direct conflict with the readings with the readings I took (Nexus 5x, supports fast charging) and documented back in July, here: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1640557/

The readings back then did not start out at 1500ma and then drop off like they did today.

Therefore, after a few quick Google searches, USB spindle laptop hard drives (5400rpm, like the Toshiba Canvio) look to pull 900ma and up. But some can pull as little as 500ma, except during power up where it peaks above. 7200rpm drives take that all the way past 1amp. SSD's on the other hand are generally under 500ma. Keep in mind that you have the overhead of the controller to contend with as well as the draw of the drive itself. And I should note that typical USB 2.0 ports on computers are generally 500ma output. Conclusion, v8 has limited the output of the USB ports either accidently or by design.
Click to expand...
...and you are running which firmware release? It may become a relevant point if/when Tesla makes a change.
 
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