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Concerning battery degradation [question about warranty]

I rather publicly on YouTube did 2 range tests of my vehicle. The initial test I measured a capacity from 98-1% while driving over a 3.3 hr period. My 2021 SR+ showed excellent capacity (53.1kWh useable; 215.5mi*239wh/mi); more than I anticipated. I just performed a very similar range test (98%-3%) and after only 1 year and 10 months my useable energy is down to just less than 46kWh (216mi at 200wh/mi). This is 13.5% degradation over less than 2 year period. I checked the cell voltages via ODBii reader and the cells are at around 3.16-3.17V under an equilibrium state (after ~1hr rest). Checking an academic NCA OCV curve this is inline with approximately 3% SoC. The rated range in the BMS is popping very quickly between 219ish up to 249mi. As far as I can tell my test was fairly rigorous and the results speak for themselves. Right now it’s hard not to be extremely concerned with the rate of degradation. Can I make a warranty claim based on this?

Vehicle stats:
Drive total 8328kWh
Odometer: 34162mi
DC charge total: 3548kWh
AC charge total: 6073kWh

Subjective: I rarely ever charge to 100% (probably less than 15 times) and never let the vehicle sit at high SoC.
 

stopcrazypp

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Dec 8, 2007
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I rather publicly on YouTube did 2 range tests of my vehicle. The initial test I measured a capacity from 98-1% while driving over a 3.3 hr period. My 2021 SR+ showed excellent capacity (53.1kWh useable; 215.5mi*239wh/mi); more than I anticipated. I just performed a very similar range test (98%-3%) and after only 1 year and 10 months my useable energy is down to just less than 46kWh (216mi at 200wh/mi). This is 13.5% degradation over less than 2 year period. I checked the cell voltages via ODBii reader and the cells are at around 3.16-3.17V under an equilibrium state (after ~1hr rest). Checking an academic NCA OCV curve this is inline with approximately 3% SoC. The rated range in the BMS is popping very quickly between 219ish up to 249mi. As far as I can tell my test was fairly rigorous and the results speak for themselves. Right now it’s hard not to be extremely concerned with the rate of degradation. Can I make a warranty claim based on this?
No. As long as it is less than 30% degradation, Tesla won't even look at it. In the older warranty where they didn't specify an explicit number, they would evaluate if there is any abnormal degradation. Now with an exact number, they don't have to care until you actually hit the number.
Vehicle Warranty
 

jjrandorin

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I just performed a very similar range test (98%-3%) and after only 1 year and 10 months my useable energy is down to just less than 46kWh (216mi at 200wh/mi). This is 13.5% degradation over less than 2 year period.

Can I make a warranty claim based on this?

No, you cant. Tesla will not discuss it with you until you hit the warranty thresshold, which is 30% capacity loss in the first 100k miles (for a SR+). You are wasting your time engaging them before that number (30%). Track it all you want, but they will cancel any service ticket for it until that point.
 
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jjrandorin

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Thanks for the replies. Does anyone else find this upsetting? This seems well below the range I anticipated.

Here is a 267 Page thread with basically the same discussion, so yes, it is a popular discussion here.

 
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Tam

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Thanks for the replies. Does anyone else find this upsetting? This seems well below the range I anticipated.

No. That's what you signed up for. You signed up for 4-year/50,000 warranty so don't be surprised when things like your air conditioner starts to break down after that. You also signed up for 70% capacity guarantee so why should Tesla fix your battery still with more than 70% capacity?
 
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jjrandorin

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No. That's what you signed up for. You signed up for 4-year/50,000 warranty so don't be surprised when things start to break down after that

Perhaps I missed it, but where did this OP say they were beyond the 4 year 50k warranty, or what relevance does that warranty have to this specific discussion of battery warranty?
 
No. That's what you signed up for. You signed up for 4-year/50,000 warranty so don't be surprised when things like your air conditioner starts to break down after that. You also signed up for 70% capacity guarantee so why should Tesla fix your battery still with more than 70% capacity?

Yeah I guess I’m just a dumb consumer on this front. I anticipated the 70% left a lot of room for margin of error for Tesla to de risk their offering. Looks like I’m following the 99th percentile worst trend here. Maybe I should dumb the vehicle to vroom soon?
 
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jjrandorin

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Yeah I guess I’m just a dumb consumer on this front. I anticipated the 70% left a lot of room for margin of error for Tesla to de risk their offering. Looks like I’m following the 99th percentile worst trend here. Maybe I should dumb the vehicle to vroom soon?

On most cars 3/Y 's, the degradation slows down quite a bit after the first couple of years. Unless this is actually impacting you in some manner (meaning, its keeping you from making some trip you normally make or something), it basically doesnt matter, at least in my opinion.

Said another way, if you had 7% degradation instead of 13%, how would that change your usage of the car? Would it change how many supercharger stops you need on some trip? Would it change your day to day operation? I am betting the answer to both of those is "no". Its just a number on the screen, really (that people get SUPREEEEMMMEEELY focused on).

If your car had 50kW available vs 46kW, how would it change your usage of the car (rhetorical question)?
 

Tam

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Yeah I guess I’m just a dumb consumer on this front. I anticipated the 70% left a lot of room for margin of error for Tesla to de risk their offering. Looks like I’m following the 99th percentile worst trend here. Maybe I should dumb the vehicle to vroom soon?

Consumers might base their purchase on the most optimistic scenarios always above higher reasonable capacity during the warranty, and they might not think about the worst scenarios of getting just about 70% capacity during the warranty.

It's a legal problem: You don't have to pay for the car if you don't like their 70% capacity warranty. But now you paid for it and took it home, you need to prove that your car is below 70% capacity in order to get it fixed.
 
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On most cars 3/Y 's, the degradation slows down quite a bit after the first couple of years. Unless this is actually impacting you in some manner (meaning, its keeping you from making some trip you normally make or something), it basically doesnt matter, at least in my opinion.

Said another way, if you had 7% degradation instead of 13%, how would that change your usage of the car? Would it change how many supercharger stops you need on some trip? Would it change your day to day operation? I am betting the answer to both of those is "no". Its just a number on the screen, really (that people get SUPREEEEMMMEEELY focused on).

If your car had 50kW available vs 46kW, how would it change your usage of the car (rhetorical question)?
I made it to my parents today without charging but by the skin of my teeth and driving conservatively. It bothers me knowing that I could have driven more liberally if I had 5% more capacity as in your example. Also it’s my expensive (depreciating) asset and the most expensive component of that asset is degrading more rapidly than was marketed to me. I’m a little tiffed about it. I appreciate your replies and help though and your point is valid. For most drives this doesn’t matter or adds up to a marginally longer supercharge.
 
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stopcrazypp

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that asset is degrading more rapidly than was marketed to me.
Did Tesla ever specify an expected degradation rate? I'm pretty sure they never did, even from the Model S days. In fact, they have moved further away from too much specification (removing any suggestions of capacity by switching away from the 60/85/90/100 spec from the Model S days).
 
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jjrandorin

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Did Tesla ever specify an expected degradation rate? I'm pretty sure they never did, even from the Model S days. In fact, they have moved further away from too much specification (removing any suggestions of capacity by switching away from the 60/85/90/100 spec from the Model S days).

They did, actually... at least in my estimation, for model 3 / Y. That marketing expecation? 70% capacity remaining, within 8 years or 100k miles (SR+) or 8 years or 120k miles (LR / P). Thats the marketing expectation as that is the warranty.

We dont know what some salesperson or other might or might not have said, though... and we dont know what peoples expectations are from reading about model older model S and X which seemed to have slightly smaller degradation numbers (on average) through the first couple of years.

Since tesla doesnt advertise officially, any expectations would be either from the warranties extended, or from "online heresy".
 

stopcrazypp

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Dec 8, 2007
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They did, actually... at least in my estimation, for model 3 / Y. That marketing expecation? 70% capacity remaining, within 8 years or 100k miles (SR+) or 8 years or 120k miles (LR / P). Thats the marketing expectation as that is the warranty.
Note I'm not talking about the warranty 70%, which obviously the OP is not referring to in that section (otherwise he would not be saying that he was misled, as his car have not fallen below 70% yet). I'm talking about an actual degradation curve that he can reference to see if his 2 year degradation is out of ordinary with whatever Tesla allegedly advertised. From my memory I never recalled Tesla advertising an actual degradation curve (or any similar in between numbers).
We dont know what some salesperson or other might or might not have said, though... and we dont know what peoples expectations are from reading about model older model S and X which seemed to have slightly smaller degradation numbers (on average) through the first couple of years.

Since tesla doesnt advertise officially, any expectations would be either from the warranties extended, or from "online heresy".
 
Note I'm not talking about the warranty 70%, which obviously the OP is not referring to in that section (otherwise he would not be saying that he was misled, as his car have not fallen below 70% yet). I'm talking about an actual degradation curve that he can reference to see if his 2 year degradation is out of ordinary with whatever Tesla allegedly advertised. From my memory I never recalled Tesla advertising an actual degradation curve (or any similar in between numbers).
Look I get it you don’t like me taking mean about Tesla. Expectations set by the media from googling “Tesla model 3 degradation”



Is that the degradation is low after 100k miles. Oh wait I hear you say, that’s not FROM Tesla.

Fine here:


May I remind you my vehicle has degraded 13.5% over 34k miles.

Oh wait you mean-hearted aschulz90 I hear you say. That article is for the nicer cars, not your plebeian SR+.

Fine what about this:

“The data is only for Model S and Model X, which have been around for longer, but Tesla claims that the Model 3 battery packs are made to last 500,000 miles and the automaker aims for its next generation of batteries to last 1 million miles.”

My vehicle is no where near on track to meet that expectation.

And fine, call me dumb. I accept it. I fell for it thinking Tesla engineers actually gave a *sugar* about the environment. Apparently not, they are just trying to make the next disposable product. You can defend these bozos all you want but if it’s truley the case after a second validation that this degradation is real I’m never recommending a Tesla again and I’m publicizing this garbage capacity retention as best I can. It’s been great interacting with you. Thanks.
 

jjrandorin

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Look I get it you don’t like me taking mean about Tesla. Expectations set by the media from googling “Tesla model 3 degradation”



Is that the degradation is low after 100k miles. Oh wait I hear you say, that’s not FROM Tesla.

Fine here:


May I remind you my vehicle has degraded 13.5% over 34k miles.

Oh wait you mean-hearted aschulz90 I hear you say. That article is for the nicer cars, not your plebeian SR+.

Fine what about this:

“The data is only for Model S and Model X, which have been around for longer, but Tesla claims that the Model 3 battery packs are made to last 500,000 miles and the automaker aims for its next generation of batteries to last 1 million miles.”

My vehicle is no where near on track to meet that expectation.

And fine, call me dumb. I accept it. I fell for it thinking Tesla engineers actually gave a *sugar* about the environment. Apparently not, they are just trying to make the next disposable product. You can defend these bozos all you want but if it’s truley the case after a second validation that this degradation is real I’m never recommending a Tesla again and I’m publicizing this garbage capacity retention as best I can. It’s been great interacting with you. Thanks.


You made this a lot more personal than what @stopcrazypp said. They never said "I dont want you talking bad about tesla" or anything of the sort. They said tesla never promised any sort of degradation curve, which is the truth.

As for the rest of your post, its the same basic complaint that is in that thread I linked you to before, so you are not alone. With that being said, I highly doubt that if your car had 49kW storage instead of 46, you would be completely satisfied with it.
 

stopcrazypp

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Dec 8, 2007
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Look I get it you don’t like me taking mean about Tesla. Expectations set by the media from googling “Tesla model 3 degradation”



Is that the degradation is low after 100k miles. Oh wait I hear you say, that’s not FROM Tesla.
As you say yourself, not only are those not from Tesla, those are only single anecdotal examples (there are so many variables to degradation it's extremely hard to draw conclusions from just anecdotes), and from LRs at that. The SR+s have significantly less capacity so would be subject to more equivalent wear for the same amount of miles. The 2021 ratio is 353 mi / 263 miles so your 34162 miles is equivalent to 45852 miles in an LR. That's why the SR is only 100k warranty, while the LRs are 120k.
Fine here:


May I remind you my vehicle has degraded 13.5% over 34k miles.

Oh wait you mean-hearted aschulz90 I hear you say. That article is for the nicer cars, not your plebeian SR+.
I have an 2021 SR+ just like you (as per my signature)! So I'm not looking down on your car if that is what you think I am saying.
Fine what about this:

“The data is only for Model S and Model X, which have been around for longer, but Tesla claims that the Model 3 battery packs are made to last 500,000 miles and the automaker aims for its next generation of batteries to last 1 million miles.”

My vehicle is no where near on track to meet that expectation.
Those are for S/X, which are warrantied even higher at 150k miles (earlier examples have unlimited mile warranty which they cancelled, which points to me they are not as confident about degradation as they initially thought when Model S/X launched). From the actual data in the article, you can see there are plenty of examples that did far worse than the average line. NCA in general is not a high cycle life chemistry (the LFPs will do better, as does the NCM supposedly in the 4680s).

When I looked up the impact report, I found this article, which pointed out the author's friend's Model X seeing similar degradation you are seeing (which in reality is equivalently worse once you figure in range and capacity):
"When new — 100D was supposed to go 305 miles on one charge and 30 thousand later I am only seeing 269 miles, which translates intp 12% capacity loss."
Tesla Impact Report | Model X Battery Capacity Loss Check

The 500k claim has no numbers tied to it (what percentage degradation is it referring to or is it simply talking about operational?) and also tells you nothing about the initial degradation (what if pack for example drops to close to 66.25% in first 5 years / 60k miles like the initial Leaf warranty and then maintains that until it dies completely). As you see from the graphs in the articles you linked, the degradation function is asymptotic, so it slows down as the battery ages.

As for the 500k mile claim, as far as I can find, that claim is from Elon's tweet in 2019. There is no reference to what percentage it refers to, and like many of Elon's tweets, it can't be pinned down do any sort of hard number (unlike the warranty 70%), and many do not pan out (for example the supposed module replacement never happened; Model 3 packs can only replaced as a whole).

And fine, call me dumb. I accept it. I fell for it thinking Tesla engineers actually gave a *sugar* about the environment. Apparently not, they are just trying to make the next disposable product. You can defend these bozos all you want but if it’s truley the case after a second validation that this degradation is real I’m never recommending a Tesla again and I’m publicizing this garbage capacity retention as best I can. It’s been great interacting with you. Thanks.
I'm not calling you dumb if you got that impression. I'm just saying from my memory, Tesla never advertised in between degradation curve or in between numbers. So none of what you bring up can actually be used to for example have an SC look at and hold Tesla to a warranty replacement. All we know explicitly is they will warranty the battery to 70% for 8 years 100k miles. I'm not trying to stop you from publishing anything. As pointed out earlier elsewhere, plenty of people have posted about their own degradation results in a very long thread. Some are better, some or worse, but long story short, Tesla isn't going to do anything until it falls under 70%.
 
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Tam

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...*sugar*...

It's been a long tradition of selling cars: Salespeople would say anything and promise everything if those facts are not documented on the receipt so they can sell cars.

Even when Elon Musk said your car would be able to drive itself next year, the order page says differently: What you bought is not "autonomous!"

So sure, they can say your battery will last 500,000 miles, but it's not documented on the warranty.

It is not ethical, but it's not illegal. That's how they can sell more cars.
 

KenC

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Sep 4, 2018
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I made it to my parents today without charging but by the skin of my teeth and driving conservatively. It bothers me knowing that I could have driven more liberally if I had 5% more capacity as in your example. Also it’s my expensive (depreciating) asset and the most expensive component of that asset is degrading more rapidly than was marketed to me. I’m a little tiffed about it. I appreciate your replies and help though and your point is valid. For most drives this doesn’t matter or adds up to a marginally longer supercharge.
As you say, "for most drives this doesn't matter or adds up to a marginally longer supercharge". My question is why did today's drive to your parents become a white knuckle ride? Why didn't you just stop at a supercharger for a minute, on your way? You're in/around Boston, there are tons of superchargers around.

I totally sympathize with people who have degradation, particularly for those people who purchase the LR, since they clearly are paying for the extra kilowatt hours. When I ordered mine, it was $9k extra for the LR battery, so seeing the battery range drop is going to be painful.
 
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Tam

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Nov 25, 2012
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...13.5% degradation over less than 2 year...
Below is my 2017 Model X after 6 years, 69,722 miles:

RecurrentAuto.com documents it as a loss of 8.81% (269/295=91.19%) with a maximum charge of 269 as of last month.

I just went for a long trip, and the maximum charge it can hold is 263 miles or a 10.85% loss.

AXd1XgG.jpg


Here's another sample from my relative's 2021 Model 3 SR+:

It's relatively new with just 10,055 miles.

Last month, it lost 12% with a current capacity of 88% (232/263).


8tF4lqn.jpg
 

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