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Concerns about Tesla to non-Tesla charging adapters

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by TEG, Sep 13, 2015.

  1. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

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    I was mistaken. Thanks for the correct information.
     
  2. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #382 stopcrazypp, Nov 17, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
    Yes, the Tesla owner can use the J1772. A J1772 EVSE by way of using an open industry standard for EV charging by default implies it welcomes all EVs (including Teslas) unless there is signage that says otherwise (including situations where it is clear it is employee parking and not for the general public) or some form of electronic/physical access control (like a membership card or account or physical key required).

    I don't see how there is any doubt about this. Someone up thread wanted to post something about charging networks possibly not welcoming Teslas charging using the included J1772 adapter and I posted clear counterexamples in those charging networks' policy statement that shows Teslas are welcome to use that adapter.

    Something like a 14-50 or 120V socket is a different case. You can't assume by default it was installed there for EV charging, and if I were in the situation, I would ask for permission before plugging in. If I happened to own a non-Tesla EV and one of these Model S to J1772 adapters, I would at minimum ask the destination charger owner for permission first before plugging in. Judging by the attitude/position of some here, I'm guessing they would plug in without asking even if it was trivial to ask.
     
  3. SW2Fiddler

    SW2Fiddler Your concern. It's noted...

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    If the signage is up to the quality of this pictured Destination Charging host, the question answers itself.
    ("All Tesla cars are Electric Vehicles. Not all Electric Vehicles are Teslas.")

    Hyatt Regency Austin TX:

    image.jpg
    image.jpg
     
  4. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin President, Florida Tesla Enthusiasts

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    #384 Larry Chanin, Nov 17, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
    This is correct with the proviso that each host location is separately negotiated. A location is not automatically given the option of accepting these donations or supplements to the cost of installation. It depends on whether the location qualifies and of course the judgement of the individual the Tesla negotiator as to whether a location warrants this sort of Tesla contribution. As was alluded to, some private email communications have become public information so we can learn what was offered to individual locations. However, there is no guarantee that these same Tesla contributions will be granted to just any location.

    Larry
     
  5. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking along the lines that Tesla was providing the HPWC for Teslas and the J1772 for "other cars" that can't use the HPWC. So in the spirit of other cars not being allowed to use the HPWC (with an adapter) should Tesla owners be allowed use the J1772 station (with their adapter)? Not in generic situations... just these examples where a Tesla Destination program installs one of each. That's where the doubt came in my mind.
     
  6. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Even in this situation, no doubt came into my mind. Tesla is installing those J1772 as a goodwill gesture so other EVs can also have access to destination charging, but by installing two HPWC for every one J1772 they are still prioritizing Tesla owners. I see no reason why Tesla or the location owner would not allow a Tesla owner to charge at the J1772 if the other two HPWC are filled up. And there have been no "non-Tesla charging only" signs posted, while there have been "Tesla charging only" signs posted, so I have not seen an example yet where the policy can be interpreted this way.
     
  7. scottf200

    scottf200 Active Member

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    #387 scottf200, Nov 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2015
    Tesla being meant for long range (70/85/90) are likely traveling when at these destination chargers. Your LEAF will be done in the middle of the night so you can drive around town the next day. As well you probably don't want that call in the middle of the night when you LEAF is done charging.
     
  8. Noel Ingle

    Noel Ingle Member

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    What do you do if you're going "long range" and a fellow Tesla owner is parked there? That's a far more likely scenario and you're going to be just as inconvenienced. Why is your default scenario that of a Leaf owner blocking your access? My placard says "OK TO UNPLUG". So pull up next to me if possible and unplug me. Otherwise call me in the middle of the night and I'll move the car. Same procedure I follow on a J1772 hookup. People using public charging need to start putting their phone number on the car.
     
  9. m6bigdog

    m6bigdog Member

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    Of course, any Destination Charger Program offer would always be at the discretion of Tesla; as they would not just let anyone send them an email and ship out the chargers and cash.
    While they don't require a contract there will be conditions to participate.

    RE: Destination Charger Program excerpt below:
    Note, This excerpt from the Tesla Destination Program is described as "typically extended to a qualified destination" and is pretty self-explanatory:
    Also, under "How to Start" the host needs to submit a quote for installation.

    I anticipate, Tesla would not release the hardware without a signed contract with an electrical contractor and pays the "up to $1500 per connector" directly to the contractor after the wall connector has a final inspection; as part of the negotiations with the host and/or the electrical contractor.



    Destination Charger Program:
    “...
    Below you can find a little more information on the program as well as the offer that we typically extend to a qualified destination. Feel free to review it at your convenience and let me know if you have any questions at all.

    What Tesla is Offering:
    - Free Equipment:
    o Tesla is happy to provide as many free Tesla Connectors (“charging stations”) as you would like to host. These are Tesla-specific stations and are the best, quickest way to charge Tesla vehicles at your property.
    o We can also provide a universal connector for every two Tesla Connectors installed on site. While having the advantage of charging all electric vehicles,
    Tesla does not make these stations and they are roughly 2x slower at charging our vehicles than the Tesla Connector.
    o A normal installation would consist of two Tesla Connectors and the optional Universal Connector. We are happy to support a larger installation if you are interested in that.
    - Subsidy:
    o Tesla will provide up to $1,500 per connector toward the cost of installation. In most cases, this will cover 100% of the up-front costs to install the equipment. If you install the 3 connectors, as above, that would be a total subsidy of up to $4,500 from Tesla.
    - Publicity:
    o We are actively directing our owners to our partner locations through our
    Find Us page and on the 17" Touchscreen and Navigation in every vehicle.

    What the Host Property Contributes:
    - Access to the connectors for your patrons as a free or low-cost amenity
    - Ongoing electricity costs (about $1.00 for each hour of active charging).

    How to Start:
    - To start things off, we’ll need to get a quote from your local electrician to do the installation.
    o If you don’t have an electrician you normally work with, we may have one in your area we can recommend.
    Page 2
    o If you’d like, we can speak directly with your electrician to explain the scope of work and electrical requirements.
    - Once the quote is ready, all of the information can be submitted through the following link: https://teslafactory.wufoo.com/forms/destination-charging- installation-estimate/
    Attached to this email are installation manuals for the equipment as well as a site evaluation guide.
    Thanks again for reaching out and looking forward to working with you.
    ...”
     
  10. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    It would be pretty hard to interpret this an meaning anything but the HPWCs are exclusively intended for Teslas and the universal connectors are for everybody including Teslas. You also can't ignore the language elsewhere that says the program is "... for our mutual customers."
     
  11. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    This seems reasonable to me, assuming the network is under-utilized, the adapter is safe, and perhaps OK with both Tesla and the Destination owner. Leaving your phone number and whether it's OK to unplug should be the norm no matter where you're charging (away from home) unless it's obviously not necessary.

    This approach essentially gives Tesla owners priority at the HPWC Destination Chargers, just like a Nissan dealer would do for a Leaf if a Tesla were charging and a Leaf showed up who needed the station. The only problem is the uncertainty of not having priority wouldn't put quite enough pressure on non-Tesla automakers to get off their butts and contribute more infrastructure so Tesla isn't the only one building a convenient network.
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #392 TEG, Nov 18, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
    There is a Tesla HPC at the Rabobank in Atascadero.
    The Roadster plug was changed for a J1772 so that more types of vehicles could use it.
    Roadsters stopping by on road trips frequently find the space occupied by some vehicles "slow charging" (like a Fiat EV, or LEAF charging at 3.3kW) with owner no where to be found.
    It would be very tempting to unplug those vehicles if you plan to stay by your Roadster, and charge more quickly to get back on the road on your way through town.
    I pulled up in a Roadster and was "informed" that the local EV group had worked out a "system" and I should just come back in 2 hours when their alloted time was up.

    There is some sense that the TESLA logo on the HPC and the fact that Tesla help get it installed should mean some priority for Tesla cars on road trips in a hurry to get back on the road, but there becomes a sense of "possessiveness" of the people who live near there who are using it every day.
     
  13. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    ​(emphasis mine)


    This sort of mentality leads to unfortunate misuse of "destination charging" resources.
     
  14. Lloyd

    Lloyd Well-Known Member

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    I believe that Rabobank changed the connector to J1772 on the HPC in Atascadero. It is their parking lot, and they are paying the bill for the electricity for the HPC, and they paid for the installation. They set the rules on this one, not Tesla.
     
  15. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's not clear to me. If that is what they meant, why not say it in clear, concise language like "These HPWCs are for the exclusive use of our mutual customers who drive Tesla vehicles. The destination partner should ensure that only Tesla vehicles utilize these stations" or something like that. If you have to "interpret meaning" then there are going to be any number of interpretations.
     
  16. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    Because, they are probably trying not to be Nazi dorks about it, but rather hope patrons will play nicely too.
     
  17. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    All I'm suggesting is that if they mean something... say it. It can be done in nice polite language. But yes, we ALL should play nicely in this regard. The demand for charging stations is only going to get worse over time as EVs become more prevalent.
     
  18. Chris TX

    Chris TX Active Member

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    Then maybe the people using an adapter on HPWCs and non-Tesla vehicles should purchase something from the Tesla Accessories page? They do have some nice shirts and jackets.
     
  19. scottf200

    scottf200 Active Member

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    That is not meaningful ($).
     
  20. m6bigdog

    m6bigdog Member

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    So, who is going to spend the time to read what you suggest in the #10 font on the posted sign?

    In reality, semantics would suggest individual words have little meaning and it is the interpretation of the context in which the words are used is what implies a concept or meaning.

    Given the posted signage at the charging stall states: "Tesla Charging Only, or Tesla Charging Station or Tesla Parking Only, etc" to include "other unattended vehicles will be towed at owners expense" and the "High Power Wall Charger Installation Guidelines" states the HPWC is "only for charging a Tesla vehicle" and the Tesla Destination Charging Program includes a reference to Mutual Customer (i.e. Host and TMC).

    However, there are always individual’s that believe they can redact words from a officially published phrase, sentence, paragraph and/or document and then suggest they can interoperate an abstract meaning.
    To grasp this concept one must first understand that while a Tesla is an EV not all EV’s are Tesla’s.
    Therefore, extrapolating that: a Tesla is a EV and a Leaf is an EV, therefore a Leaf is the same as a Tesla doesn't do anything but show a flawed analysis and/or argument.

    Note, the official context for the HPWC has always been associated with the word “Tesla”.
    Hence, the HPWC's use cannot be interoperated for charging non-Tesla EV’s such as the Leaf or Volt.
    And, an unauthorized/unapproved adapters does not edit the meaning of the official concept inferred in the "Tesla Charging Only" signage and that the HPWC is "only for charging a Tesla vehicle".

    Any other interpretation is nothing more than a refusal to give the appropriate and realistic value to all the words included in the implied concept, i.e., "Tesla Charging Only".

    But of course, that is why the World will always need Laws and Lawyers!!
     

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