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Concerns about Tesla to non-Tesla charging adapters

FlasherZ

Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv
Jun 21, 2012
7,024
1,013
Pins that float slightly (or spring)are a better idea so that they don't deform the sleeves that they push into by expanding them, eventually creating higher-resistance connections. This is especially needed when many different connectors will be plugged in.
 

reddy

Member
Jan 26, 2013
890
1,171
Amarillo, TX
This is a bad idea.

Just as bad as Exxon, Shell, Mobil, BP, Citgo, Valero have for their stations.

Why on Earth would we want more than one make of ICE vehicle going to any of those places ???

They would get SO OVERUSED.... why, we would have to put one on almost every street corner !!!!

Just look at the example of gasoline recharging stations.

They are such a failure, it is hard to find one, and I get range anxiety driving my Subaru Forester.

Oh, and if we were vertically integrated, and produced the energy from solar too??? Like Exxon produces the oil, refines the gas, etc.

Super, super bad idea.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,919
4,834
This is a bad idea.

Just as bad as Exxon, Shell, Mobil, BP, Citgo, Valero have for their stations.

Why on Earth would we want more than one make of ICE vehicle going to any of those places ???
No one is suggesting it would be a bad idea for more than one make to use the supercharger network, just that using a CHAdeMO adapter to do it (which would be current limited to 50kW) is a bad idea.

Tesla's offer is for an automaker interested in the supercharger network to adopt the Tesla connector, support the high power charging speed (which would mean 90kW minimum), and invest a proportional amount of money into expanding the network.
 

TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,751
8,721
Yes - at a Brownsville, TX dealership. In preparation for a trip there, I called and requested use. They were friendly and gave the green light. They also provided a manager contact at that dealership for reference.

So, yes, you think it is expected that Nissan dealers would welcome/allow Teslas to charge there.
So, has anyone asked a Tesla store if they can stop and charge their non-Tesla EV at the Tesla charging stations?

- - - Updated - - -

Supercharger - 231 US locations - supercharge.info
CHAdeMO --- 1,306 US locations - CHAdeMO Association

It seems your statement is suspect ;-)

Yeah, OK. I was perhaps OK saying "far between", but not "few".
There are still large areas with no CHAdeMO coverage. Tesla implemented their own "nationwide" infra designed for Roadtrips with nice spacing.
CHAdeMO is more centered in certain areas.

I filtered plug-share western states for Tesla Superchargers, then CHAdeMO...

Tesla:
tesla1.png

CHAdeMO:
chad1.png


So, for instance, if you were in Nevada, Arizona, or Idaho, you might appreciate being able to use a Supercharger if you didn't have a Tesla.
I think Tesla is better at keeping their network "up" too. I clicked on some of the CHAdeMOs on the plug-share map, and many were reported as "down". It looks like the one in Idaho is reported as down:
idown.png



Some road trip paths just aren't covered by CHAdeMO but are by Tesla Superchargers.

Also, the Tesla system is "unified". The CHAdeMO are many different varieties with different payment schemes, different access cards, etc. You may not be able to make use of many stations on the map.

- - - Updated - - -

...Tesla's offer is for an automaker interested in the supercharger network to adopt the Tesla connector, support the high power charging speed (which would mean 90kW minimum), and invest a proportional amount of money into expanding the network.

To expect any other vehicle to match Model S charging speeds puts a big hurdle in place. Most EVs with smaller battery packs can't support that charging rate. It is some fundamental limits based on the charge rate per cell multiplied by the number of cells. Basically the Tesla system is designed to quick charge only high end EVs that have a huge (=expensive) battery.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, I noticed this other related thread:

Will other brand vehicles be able to use the Supercharger?

and:

DC Quick Charge vs Supercharge
 
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m6bigdog

Member
Mar 29, 2015
150
33
San Ramon, CA
I thought I would put this idea out there and see what people think:

What if there was a Supercharger to Chademo adapter that any car with a Chademo port could use. It could be an unlimited deal, buy the adapter and it works forever for "free", or pay a fee for each use or KwH.

I'd really like to hear what a Leaf driver, for example, would think of this. I know if might have limited appeal given the short range of EV's currently and geography of the Supercharger placement, but if/when the Bolt comes to be, it could be a game changer.

It seems in-line with what Elon generally thinks, but what do you all think?


This is what a Tesla driver thinks!!
Tesla's scheme for the Supercharger Network is "Long Distance" travel only; A quick charge station on the road, away from your local Daily Charge Station.
Tesla's scheme for a Daily Charge Station (commute, normal daily driving, etc.) is a UMC and/or HPWC at your residence overnight or other location where you are authorized to charge, i.e. work, J1772, HPWC destination .

The current range of the other EV's that can be DC charged is insufficient for Long Distance travel, hence if you sell a Leaf owner a Tesla to CHAdeMO adapter you will be encouraging them to use it for Daily Charging, short haul/local charging and they will stop/reduce charging at home/using other PAYG charge stations since the Supercharger is local and free.

Also, given the anticipated Tesla production numbers (currently 100k to be 10x by 2020) there will be little if any reserve capacity for other manufacture cars at the Tesla Supercharger Network.

Therefore, IMO, the Tesla Supercharger stalls may soon become congested without adding the Leaf owners and other non-Tesla EV's, leaching off the Tesla Supercharger Network every chance they get/daily.

Not only is this a bad idea, but I anticipate unworkable on so many levels and would doom the Supercharger Network to failure.

I anticipate if unauthorized (DC and HPWC) adapters become available in any numbers Tesla will start lobbying the Local authorities to Ticket and/or Tow the un-authorized vehicles parking and/or charging.
Why, because not only is it theft it a violation of Tesla's intended use and the NRTL listing that allowed the HPWC and Supercharger to be installed (local jurisdiction Permit) in the first place so when the intended use is violated the local authorities must act to keep from being complicit in the theft and civil liability should something go wrong during the EVSE use.
 

scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
8,224
13,141
NoVA
For the ones Tesla owns or gives away, people should be able to use them with non-Tesla cars to the exact extent that Tesla lets them do so.

This agrees with my stance earlier.

The existence of a safe, well engineered adapter is not the problem. The usage of it where providers allow it is not a problem[1]. It is the assumption that one is entitled to use it regardless intent or policy that is a problem.

Many hotels provide complimentary WiFi access for their loyalty club members that you otherwise must pay for. I see employing a software hack to bypass that restriction no different than employing a hardware hack to bypass the charging restriction.


[1] I'd be happy to let a friend use one with my personally purchased HPWC if he needed to.
 

TexasEV

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2013
7,642
8,470
Austin, TX
The cars currently made with CHAdeMO adapters are short-range EVs. The Tesla supercharger network is to facilitate long-distance driving by long-range EVs. Oil and water don't mix, if you will pardon the use of oil in an expression!
 

scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
8,224
13,141
NoVA
There is a whole 'entitlement' / 'fairness' argument that goes into all of this. I see some signs that people think 'I paid so much for this car, that I expect exclusivity... I don't want cheapo EVs trying to use "my" charging infrastructure...'

Interesting.

I find the idea of "I should be be able to charge regardless of the wishes of the person bearing the expense." to be the entitled thinking.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,287
7,383
Maine
Superchargers are often too far apart to form a network for short-distance BEVs, and even would be at better spacing.

But anyway: contention, contention, contention. Say you can charge at 300mph in a Tesla. Compare to a 30mpg gasoline car that gets 30mpg and can refuel at 5gal/min. 30 x 5 = 150, 150 x 60 = 9000, so that's 9000mph, 30 times faster. So to have equivalent refueling capacity (on average) by simple substitution, of gas pump for plug you need 29/30 of miles to be done on home, destination, or hotel charging. If charging is at 150mph you need 59/60 of charging HDH.
- slow charging bad: increases number of charging spots required
- short range bad: increases percentage of miles using on-the-road charging.

To answer TEG's question about Teslas charging at dealerships: that's up to the dealership.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,351
3,341
Phoenix, AZ
If all Tesla plugs were either owned by Tesla or part of their destination charging program, that would be one thing. But there are a lot of HPWCs and UMCs out there which were purchased by the people who own them (I own one of each) and if those people want to charge non-Tesla cars with them using an adapter, that's their right. For the ones Tesla owns or gives away, people should be able to use them with non-Tesla cars to the exact extent that Tesla lets them do so.

^^ This.

Saying that Tesla shouldn't make an adapter because it might be misappropriated for destination chargers is nonsense.

- - - Updated - - -

This agrees with my stance earlier.

The existence of a safe, well engineered adapter is not the problem. The usage of it where providers allow it is not a problem[1]. It is the assumption that one is entitled to use it regardless intent or policy that is a problem.

Many hotels provide complimentary WiFi access for their loyalty club members that you otherwise must pay for. I see employing a software hack to bypass that restriction no different than employing a hardware hack to bypass the charging restriction.


[1] I'd be happy to let a friend use one with my personally purchased HPWC if he needed to.

People are going to do what they are going to do.
 

scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
8,224
13,141
NoVA
^^ This.

Saying that Tesla shouldn't make an adapter because it might be misappropriated for destination chargers is nonsense.

- - - Updated - - -



People are going to do what they are going to do.

People also engage in theft of service. That doesn't mean providers aren't within their right to attempt to discourage, nor that it doesn't impact others.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,351
3,341
Phoenix, AZ
People also engage in theft of service. That doesn't mean providers aren't within their right to attempt to discourage, nor that it doesn't impact others.

So the system will work itself out. But there's no reason why someone shouldn't attempt to produce this adapter, there is definitely a demand. What I don't understand is the desire by some forum members to squelch and discourage this type of innovation. Indeed, most of the contrarian positions in this thread are making assumptions about Tesla's terms with destination providers without even knowing what those terms actually are. Why not get that information first and then post it, instead of drawing conclusions based upon idle speculation?

And if someone wants to copy or violate Tesla's patents, that is that person's choice. It's up to Tesla to enforce its patents, not forum members. Elon opened up all the patents, right? So it's about time people start using them.
 

mikeash

Active Member
Oct 26, 2014
1,105
699
Fairfax, VA, USA
It is the assumption that one is entitled to use it regardless intent or policy that is a problem.

Well, there's our trouble!

You say "intent or policy" as if they're interchangeable. They're totally different things. Using one of these adapters in a way that's against the policy of the charger owner would be bad, no doubt. But I see no problem with using one against the intent of the owner. It is the owner's responsibility to translate intent into policy, not ours.

If Tesla's intent with their destination chargers is that people don't use adapters to charge other cars, then they should put a policy into place to enforce that. Until and unless they do that, we shouldn't be required to play guessing games about the state of their corporate mind.

They did this with superchargers. They didn't just set them up and make us figure it out. They are quite clear that if you want to use superchargers you either need to buy a car that explicitly has supercharging capability, or pay money to enable it after the fact. They are also quite clear that other manufacturers can allow their cars to use these stations, but only if they work with Tesla and meet their conditions. Any adapter that allowed non-supercharger-capable cars to use superchargers would clearly be against Tesla's actual policy, not just their nebulous and ultimately unknowable intent.

If HPWC owners start saying explicitly that they only allow Teslas to charge with them, and people with an adapter start saying that they're going to ignore that and keep charging at those specific HPWC's anyway, then and only then do I see any sort of problem. Until then, I don't understand what the big deal is.
 

m6bigdog

Member
Mar 29, 2015
150
33
San Ramon, CA
I posted this in another thread, but I did speak with someone involved with the Destination Program, on the installation side, and he says there is nothing in the agreement that would limit a host from allowing other makes of cars from using the HPWC with an adapter.

However the individual who replied to your query doesn't understand the implied agreement!!!

The whole problem with any and all unauthorized use of a Model S to J1772 adapters is the Tesla UMC and HPWC User Manuals states these charger are: "designed only for charging a Tesla vehicle (excluding Tesla Roadster). Do not use it for any other purpose or with any other vehicle or object." Also, the Charger stalls are signed with "Tesla Charging Only". These words have consequences to imply order and authorized use.

The reality is, the NRTL certification/listing that allowed these EVSEs to be installed to the NEC requires that they only be used following the manufacture instructions; always and forever!!
Also, also, the insurance companies that provide liability insurance for whom ever should purchase these policies (vehicle owner, property owner, hotel operator etc.) will hawk eye and refuse to provide liability coverage for any unauthorized Model S to J1772 adapter use that violates the installation approval should it come to their attention during an loss investigation.

IMHO, the Municipality, Local Permitting authority, AHJ's approval authority and the insurance companies underwriting authority will not allow anyone to repurpose the Tesla EVSE for other vehicles just because they personally see it as a cool thing to do.

I anticipate that Tesla, the property owners, business operators and the Local Authorities will soon be required to enforce the “Tesla Only” requirement because the NRTL certification/listing is no longer valid with unauthorized EV charging and Tesla, the property owner and the Local Authorities (control of intended use, should be aware of actual use) will be complicit to allow and/or turn a blind eye to a Model S to J1772 adapter being used at a charging stall with "Tesla Only" signage as they will find themselves civilly responsible for whatever should occur during and/or after the unauthorized EV charging.

IMHO, I don't believe Tesla, the property owner and/or the municipality will want condone violating Tesla’s EVSE intended use "Tesla Only" requirement and/or installation approval process for a few EV owners that want to leach off the Tesla charging network for their personal benefit.

I could be wrong but without order the whole "Authorized Use" issue goes out the window, i.e, I could steal and commandeer anything from anyone I want just by gaining access.
 
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scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
8,224
13,141
NoVA
You say "intent or policy" as if they're interchangeable.

No, I include them both as I see them as applicable.

This idea of avoiding personal responsibility by forcing all of the burden upon the provider is something I disagree with.

- It's reasonable to conclude that the all-you can eat buffet doesn't intend for you to arrive at noon and stay until 6pm so you can eat both lunch and dinner, even if not expressly forbidden.

- It's reasonable to conclude that gas station that provides free air & water (ostensibly for your car), doesn't intend for you to fill up your 500 gallon water tank o go home an irrigate your lawn, even if not expressly forbidden.

- It's reasonable to conclude that the employer providing an outlet in the parking lot for an EV doesn't intend for you to charge up your home back up battery pack you've towed there on a trailer, even if not expressly forbidden.


This shirking responsibility that a so-called mature adult should have in society in general is what leads to 12-page disclaimers, and/or providers of amenities deciding the enforcement is not worth the hassle and just packing it up.

See also: ​This is why we can't have nice things.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,919
4,834
Why not get that information first and then post it, instead of drawing conclusions based upon idle speculation?
Someone already did that in another thread. Hcsharp says the agreement is explicit that the HPWCs are for Tesla vehicles only. While he doesn't do a direct quote, I'm inclined to believe him because he works intimately with the destination charging program (he is the one who made the Roadster to Model S adapters).
All correct. BTW, you didn't need the "if" in your second paragraph. Tesla's contract with the host states that the chargers they supply are for Tesla customers. To back up Tesla's intent on this issue, Tesla provided a free (in most cases) J1772 EVSE to destinations who felt they needed it for non-Tesla EVs.
scaesare also pointed this out:
While I don't have the agreement itself, I will note that Tesla's Destination Charging Form Page says:
If your hotel, resort, club, or other full service destination is interested in partnering with Tesla Motors to install charging hardware, Tesla may be able to provide free or discounted Tesla Wall Connectors for our mutual customers' use.
 

m6bigdog

Member
Mar 29, 2015
150
33
San Ramon, CA
Well, there's our trouble!

You say "intent or policy" as if they're interchangeable. They're totally different things. Using one of these adapters in a way that's against the policy of the charger owner would be bad, no doubt. But I see no problem with using one against the intent of the owner. It is the owner's responsibility to translate intent into policy, not ours.

If Tesla's intent with their destination chargers is that people don't use adapters to charge other cars, then they should put a policy into place to enforce that. Until and unless they do that, we shouldn't be required to play guessing games about the state of their corporate mind.

They did this with superchargers. They didn't just set them up and make us figure it out. They are quite clear that if you want to use superchargers you either need to buy a car that explicitly has supercharging capability, or pay money to enable it after the fact. They are also quite clear that other manufacturers can allow their cars to use these stations, but only if they work with Tesla and meet their conditions. Any adapter that allowed non-supercharger-capable cars to use superchargers would clearly be against Tesla's actual policy, not just their nebulous and ultimately unknowable intent.

If HPWC owners start saying explicitly that they only allow Teslas to charge with them, and people with an adapter start saying that they're going to ignore that and keep charging at those specific HPWC's anyway, then and only then do I see any sort of problem. Until then, I don't understand what the big deal is.

You have ignored the reality:
The whole problem with any and all unauthorized use of a Model S to J1772 adapters is the Tesla UMC and HPWC User Manuals states these charger are: "designed only for charging a Tesla vehicle (excluding Tesla Roadster). Do not use it for any other purpose or with any other vehicle or object." Also, the Charger stalls are signed with"Tesla Only". These words have consequences to imply order and authorized use.

The reality is, the NRTL certification/listing that allowed these EVSEs to be installed to the NEC requires that they only be used following the manufacture instructions; always and forever!!
Also, also, the insurance companies that provide liability insurance for whom ever should purchase these policies (vehicle owner, property owner, hotel operator etc.) will hawk eye and refuse to provide liability coverage for any unauthorized Model S to J1772 adapter use that violates the installation approval should it come to their attention during an loss investigation.

IMHO, the Municipality, Local Permitting authority, AHJ's approval authority and the insurance companies underwriting authority will not allow anyone to repurpose the Tesla EVSE for other vehicles just because they personally see it as a cool thing to do. I anticipate Ticketing and Towing to follow if the problem persist.

I anticipate that Tesla, the property owners, business operators and the Local Authorities will soon be required to enforce the “Tesla Only” requirement because the NRTL certification/listing is no longer valid with unauthorized EV charging and Tesla, the property owner and the Local Authorities (control of intended use, should be aware of actual use) will be complicit to allow and/or turn a blind eye to a Model S to J1772 adapter being used at a charging stall with "Tesla Only" signage as they will find themselves civilly responsible for whatever should occur during and/or after the unauthorized EV charging.

IMHO, I don't believe Tesla, the property owner and/or the municipality will want to condone violating Tesla’s EVSE intended use "Tesla Only" requirement and/or installation approval process for a few EV owners that want to leach off the Tesla charging network for their personal benefit.

I could be wrong but without order the whole "ownership and authorized Use" issue goes out the window, i.e, I could steal and commandeer anything form anyone I want just by gaining access.
Hummm, sounds like third world behavior!!!
 
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