Concerns over Model 3 Performance brakes efficiency. How good is it? After market brakes?

[Sam1]

Anyway, feel free to test it yourself - it’s not my job to convince people - but from the data posted, I’m reasonably sure that with performance and non-Performance brakes, stopping distances will be within just a couple feet of one another, with identical tires.

yeah, I've already done this with racing brakes rotors and RB street pads on the 19" oem continentals. on average they were 10 feet shorter stops than the oem rotors and pads.

Forgot to mention in the earlier post you said that the video doesn't show a single 60-0 stop. It does, you just have to watch it. or, they said 100kmh - 0kmh so I guess technically it would be a single emergency stop from 62.1mph - 0mph

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Forgot to mention in the earlier post you said that the video doesn't show a single 60-0 stop.

That’s not what I said. I just said the video wasn’t showing a two-foot difference in braking distance (or whatever) which is what would be expected.

I've already done this with racing brakes rotors and RB street pads on the 19" oem continentals. on average they were 10 feet shorter stops than the oem rotors and pads.

Cool. Definitely post the instrumented data! Presumably all done on the same day and time and same surface. (Or at least within an hour, the time to swap the rotors and pads.)

Would be great to see.

 

[Sam1]

That’s not what I said. I just said the video wasn’t showing a two-foot difference in braking distance (or whatever) which is what would be expected.

Cool. Definitely post the instrumented data! Presumably all done on the same day and time and same surface. (Or at least within an hour, the time to swap the rotors and pads.)

Would be great to see.

It was with Dragy, will have to see if I can dig it up, have switched phones since then and it only saved data that you upload to the leaderboards at the time.

 

[AtomicNucleus]

Man this is stupid.

Knightshade is so fixated on only when braking is traction limited. Of course only the tire matters during traction-limited phase.

Outside of the traction-limited phase, BBK is obviously better.

BBK gives superior feel and response time to many drivers. This superior feel allows them to brake more accurately and quickly. Which leads to lower braking distances. Lower response time also leads to lower braking distances.

 

[Mash]

Man this is stupid.

Knightshade is so fixated on only when braking is traction limited. Of course only the tire matters during traction-limited phase.

Outside of the traction-limited phase, BBK is obviously better.

BBK gives superior feel and response time to many drivers. This superior feel allows them to brake more accurately and quickly. Which leads to lower braking distances. Lower response time also leads to lower braking distances.

I disagree. It's not about BBK at all. You need larger brakes only if you have not enough heat capacity. Otherwise you want smaller and better designed brakes. Larger pads and more pistons of BBK usually means more flex and more delay.

 

[Knightshade]

Man this is stupid.

Knightshade is so fixated on only when braking is traction limited. Of course only the tire matters during traction-limited phase.

This is simply inaccurate.

(and I dunno about the "of course" either since there were still those few...fellows... who kept disagreeing even with basic physics like that)


But I also pointed out, including offering multiple sources with more details, on all the places other than stopping distance where changing brake parts could offer improvements in feel, feedback, fade resistance- though mainly they're beneficial on a track rather than the street (apart from feel preference).

Though even then "bigger" is not necessarily better depending on the use (and how well designed the replacement parts are- many BBKs will make your braking measurably worse overall).

Go all the way back to my very first post on the topic and I'm making the distinction to the OP about street versus track use, and about "feel" versus "stopping distance"

I agree someone was "fixated" on only one thing- but it sure wasn't me.

 

[AtomicNucleus]

I disagree. It's not about BBK at all. You need larger brakes only if you have not enough heat capacity. Otherwise you want smaller and better designed brakes. Larger pads and more pistons of BBK usually means more flex and more delay.

BBK are typically come with better pads and disks than stock, while heat capacity gives a more confident feel lap after lap.

This is simply inaccurate.

But I also pointed out, including offering multiple sources with more details, on all the places other than stopping distance where changing brake parts could offer improvements in feel, feedback, fade resistance- though mainly they're beneficial on a track rather than the street (apart from feel preference).

Though even then "bigger" is not necessarily better depending on the use (and how well designed the replacement parts are- many BBKs will make your braking measurably worse overall).

Go all the way back to my very first post on the topic and I'm making the distinction to the OP about street versus track use, and about "feel" versus "stopping distance"

I agree someone was "fixated" on only one thing- but it sure wasn't me.

You were commented on braking distance in in vast majority of your comments here. Pretty sure that constitutes fixation.

I think we all agree that the majority of the benefits of BBKs are found on track, and that unless the BBK used is trash, performance is typically better than stock.

 

[Knightshade]

You were commented on braking distance in in vast majority of your comments here. Pretty sure that constitutes fixation.

Given it was entirely in reply to other people posting inaccurate info about the topic not really.

Especially when even then I often pointed out the other aspects of braking systems that changing parts can impact (for better and for worse).

I think we all agree that the majority of the benefits of BBKs are found on track, and that unless the BBK used is trash, performance is typically better than stock.

Outside of feel or cosmetics (or folks who routinely drive illegal speeds on roads requiring a lot of braking I suppose) I'd say basically all the benefit is on the track. Though to some who never track, just the feel or looks are worthwhile for the cost.

As to better- depends on the kit.

I suppose one could go all No True Scotsman and simply classify any kit that doesn't improve performance to be trash, but I think you might be surprised how many kits on the market in general (not specific to Tesla) would fall into that category, often taking a "it's bigger and it fits the car what more do you want?" design approach to kits.

Several of the sources I provided go into some technical detail on this and why unless it's designed with certain OEM factors in mind it's likely to make your performance worse in at least some situations.

In general I trust stuff from say, Stoptech or Brembo, to be done correctly... and for the Model 3 in particular I'd trust MPPs stuff for the track

Likewise bigger can often mean more unsprung mass, so even on a properly designed upgrade kit "better" if the existing brakes already do the job won't turn out to actually be better, and even among upgrade kits a smaller/lighter one might do the job you need better than a larger one depending on the specific application.

 

[Needsdecaf]

LOLZ.

 

[Clivew]

LOLZ.

I can only guess!

I suppose when people don't have the intelligence to understand real technical documents and info, you know, stuff that actually use math to explain the facts (unless of course you are in denial about the laws of physics in this universe), then they keep that cranian lodged in their dark place. Some folks think the earth is flat after all.

 

[Knightshade]

I can only guess!

I suppose when people don't have the intelligence to understand real technical documents and info, you know, stuff that actually use math to explain the facts (unless of course you are in denial about the laws of physics in this universe), then they keep that cranian lodged in their dark place. Some folks think the earth is flat after all.

You realize the guy to whom you are replying (Needsdecaf) is the one who kept insisting he couldn't be bothered to read any of the links provided by anyone in the discussion containing exactly the content you describe, right?


LOLZ indeed!

 

[Sam1]

Given it was entirely in reply to other people posting inaccurate info about the topic not really.

Especially when even then I often pointed out the other aspects of braking systems that changing parts can impact (for better and for worse).




Outside of feel or cosmetics (or folks who routinely drive illegal speeds on roads requiring a lot of braking I suppose) I'd say basically all the benefit is on the track. Though to some who never track, just the feel or looks are worthwhile for the cost.

As to better- depends on the kit.

I suppose one could go all No True Scotsman and simply classify any kit that doesn't improve performance to be trash, but I think you might be surprised how many kits on the market in general (not specific to Tesla) would fall into that category, often taking a "it's bigger and it fits the car what more do you want?" design approach to kits.

Several of the sources I provided go into some technical detail on this and why unless it's designed with certain OEM factors in mind it's likely to make your performance worse in at least some situations.

In general I trust stuff from say, Stoptech or Brembo, to be done correctly... and for the Model 3 in particular I'd trust MPPs stuff for the track

Likewise bigger can often mean more unsprung mass, so even on a properly designed upgrade kit "better" if the existing brakes already do the job won't turn out to actually be better, and even among upgrade kits a smaller/lighter one might do the job you need better than a larger one depending on the specific application.

TL;DR knightshade says "brakes don't stop a car, tires do" and 'no changes to a brake system will increase the stopping performance over an oem system'. But also he says that changes to brake systems will increase stopping performance in <insert a multitude of scenarios here>, while third party systems are better 'if done correctly'.

Not sure what's happening this point.

 

[Knightshade]

TL;DR knightshade says "brakes don't stop a car, tires do" and 'no changes to a brake system will increase the stopping performance over an oem system'. But also he says that changes to brake systems will increase stopping performance in <insert a multitude of scenarios here>, while third party systems are better 'if done correctly'.

Not sure what's happening this point.

You are largely misrepresenting what I actually said is what's happening at this point

 

[mcbarnet007]

to answer OP's original question, The performance red caliper has bigger pad sweep area, larger rotor radius (more torque), and beefier and stiffer caliper. I've driven both and the performance brake feels more like a European performance car as long as you don't overheat it.

 

[mcbarnet007]

@Clivew how good do you think the Model 3's ABS is on track? Is threshold braking better or smashing the brake and let ABS sort it out?

 

[Sam1]

@Clivew how good do you think the Model 3's ABS is on track? Is threshold braking better or smashing the brake and let ABS sort it out?

Would assume it's the same as any other feature, like traction control. If you have the skill set to hold the car on the edge, then the driver assist functions slow you down. If you're a novice, then abs/tc will help out greatly

 

[Clivew]

@Clivew how good do you think the Model 3's ABS is on track? Is threshold braking better or smashing the brake and let ABS sort it out?

I personally always try to threshold brake, even with ABS, unless it's a motorsport system, such as the formentioned Bosch M5. I do initially smash the pedal into ABS, then modulate brake pressure to suit. One of the reasons is that the standard ABS is calibrated for road tyres, so once you use semi-slicks or slicks, it doesn't have the control to extract the most out of them.

 

[RC10M3P]

There is a lot of crap in this thread, lol.

But OP, did you try driving the M3P in track mode or the regular driving modes?

The reason is, unless you are in track mode the abs is VERY sensitive, and the pedal never really feels firm as the abs engages and annoyingly pulses quickly.

In track mode the pedal feel is MUCH better, and feels nice and firm. The abs in track mode also supports a much higher threshold before it engages and will actually chirp the tires as it engages but very predictably.

So if this is what you felt then it is not surprising that is was disappointing. For an autocross the stock brakes are sufficient though, for a track day you'll want another seat of pads suitable for the heat range they will be operating in.

 

[GasGasGas]

Let's try and settle this.
@GasGasGas What do you want to improve?

1. Stopping distance
or
2. Brake feel and bite

Thanks

Let's try and settle this.
@GasGasGas What do you want to improve?

1. Stopping distance
or
2. Brake feel and bite

Thanks

Since the Stopping distance wouldn't change too much, I care for of the feeling.

I want to achieve the similar of the safe feeling that I get when I brake in my 911 and m5. The bite, yeah.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Since the Stopping distance wouldn't change too much, I care for of the feeling.

I want to achieve the similar of the safe feeling that I get when I brake in my 911 and m5. The bite, yeah.

Thank you. That is what I thought you meant, but it seems others had their own agenda.

So, anyway, as I said 5 pages ago if the OE pads and rotors are bedded properly that alone will help with the feel and bite, but if you want a more dramatic improvement get some aftermarket track pads like Carbotech and they will feel much better.