TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Condo answer = NO

Discussion in 'Florida' started by auger, May 14, 2014.

  1. auger

    auger Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Location:
    SoFL
    Well, not that I didn't see it coming; but after six months of delay tactics, I got the official "No" from the BoD. I finally submitted an architectural mod request to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet next to my parking spot which required them to, at least, give me an answer.

    In the request, I said I would pay for everything--permits, installation, use, maintenance, extra liability insurance, and removal when/if I left. At the meeting, I addressed all of their concerns; although, it was clear they had already made up their minds. They aren't interested in installing a common area outlet for everyone.

    Other than moving, does anyone have any suggestions for me? I live in a high-rise condo in Fort Lauderdale. Justifications and arguments aren't going to work on them. It will take something more than that, like an outside influence--legal, ordinance, etc.

    I like my car better than my place, but I would rather keep both. Suggestions?
     
  2. Enadler

    Enadler Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    352
    Location:
    Westchester, NY
    Depending on your by laws you may be able to push it to a full condo vote at the annual meeting.

    One other thought? Do you own the spot or is it a "common area" that you have access to?
     
    • Informative x 1
  3. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    4,279
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Try to talk to a community paper. Name and shame your condo board. Hopefully have them write a tiny article. Then distribute the article around to everyone in your building. Then see what happens.
     
  4. meloccom

    meloccom Moderator Aus/NZ

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,316
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    I pitched it in terms of the inevitability of electric cars and that the owners need to prepare for future EV owning residents to prevent illegal installations or overloading the incoming electricity supply.
    I offered and they agreed that I would draft rules in relation to charging Plug in vehicles in the shared garage.
    These were then vetted by a lawyer and registered at my expense.
    I then applied under these rules for a charge point.
    It did take a while, about a year all up.
     
  5. bluetinc

    bluetinc Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    682
    Location:
    MD
    I certainly don't know how your BoD runs, but I have know some with issues to simply run for president of the local homeowners/BoD and once in place, most of their issues became much easier to deal with.

    Peter
     
  6. tomas

    tomas Traded in 9 rep bars for M3, used to be somebody!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    2,100
    Location:
    Chicago/Montecito
    I think this is awesome thinking... making it about the need to "get it right" and provide an amenity for all future plug-in owners is a high road approach that takes it out of the realm of "I need something for me" and into "we need something for us". Harder to deny. Having said that, if they already considered for many moons and denied, they may not have an open mind to think about it from another angle, and the confrontational lawyer or press approach may be warranted.

    Here's a kooky interim option... don't know your range requirements or proximity to service center/supercharging. I know this would work for me.
    1) For day to day, charge overnight and whenever you are home @ 110. I could easily get 45 miles of range per day that way... more than I use on most days.
    2) On days when a bit more is needed: network with local owners group and tesla sales to find willing owners nearby who might let you plug in occasionally for a couple hour 40 amp charge. I have recently discovered that I have 2 other owners on my own block!
    3) When you are going on a road trip: stop off at service center or supercharger on the way out.
     
  7. Lifeguard(ret.)

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2013
    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    California has a statute that requires condo associations to permit installation of EV charging stations provided the owner picks up the cost, provides insurance etc. Perhaps someone knows a sympathetic state legislator who would be willing to push through a bill modeled on the CA law. The hard work of drafting has already been done!
     
  8. hyperpretension

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    San Diego
    Yeah, I live in CA and it was very easy to get my condo HOA to approve a charge station in our common area garage. The board members knew they couldn't deny me, but I was respectful and laid it all out in a way they could say yes. I paid for the installation and reimburse the HOA via a company called Evercharge that monitors my usage, charges me, then reimburses the HOA.

    In fact, I was on the local news talking about it last week in a story all about condo owners and EVs. (ignore any number you don't hear me say in the report...they are all wrong, haha).
    Car charging stations zapping into town | San Diego 6 | Local News
     
  9. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,365
    Location:
    Québec
    Offer them all rides, even test drives. Then they'll realize the future is electric and that their properties will go down in value if charging stations aren't available.
     
  10. auger

    auger Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Location:
    SoFL
    Thanks for the ideas.

    There is no 120v option in the garage at all. My spot is assigned, but not deeded. No amount of logic is going to change their mind. The President of the Board is against it, and the majority of Board members have never voted against him. I did have one Board member that was all for it. I've thought about the legislation idea, but it would be years before it would be enacted, if ever.

    However, they are all of a sudden talking about a common area installation. Since they just started talking about it, I estimate it would be a year if they decide to do it. Valet parking spots would have to be reassigned which required a membership vote. That's only done once/year, and they frequently fail because we have many part-time residents that don't vote.

    Maybe it is time to move afterall . . .
     
  11. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    It sounds like you are in a no win situation. If you move out tell them why.
     
  12. TI Sailor

    TI Sailor Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Treasure Island, FL
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I too live in a condo with mostly retired 65+ year old owners, including me. Still, the BoD has been relatively receptive to EV’s, and therefore to the need for a charging infrastructure. However, since we're a small association with only 15 units, "important" matters are voted upon by all owners rather than just the BoD. Thus I've been on hold lobbying owners for over a year, but feel I'm close to obtaining a majority in favor of allowing me to install EVSE in one of my 2 parking spaces.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]For those unfamiliar with usual condo conventions, balconies, boat slips and parking spaces are often considered Limited Common Elements. They are not specifically owned individually, but individuals are granted exclusive use of each of them. That means the Association has the right and responsibility for their safe and lawful use, maintenance, etc. Thus the Association must approve all changes and modifications. Note: I'm not a lawyer, but believe I have this right.
    [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]The tactics I've used have mainly centered on economics since most owners subsist on savings and fixed incomes. Of course they’re worried about Pandora’s Box, e.g., who & what’s next, and what’s it going to cost me? I've assured them all costs, including installation, ongoing costs, and maintenance should be born by owners. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Since e[/FONT]sthetics is big with our full-time owners, I always make sure to emphasize there's no risk of oil dripping in undercover parking spaces, much less the oil catching fire from a hot engine. While a fire is remote, it seems to have made an impression each time I’ve used it. I throw in the lack of noise as well. Finally, I reminded them Tesla Motors is an American company, employing American workers building a car not dependent on any foreign oil. Since several owners hadn’t heard of Tesla before my request (not surprising since most aren’t routinely car-shopping), they seem to have been swayed the most by those three factors.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I wish I could say I have everyone on board, but such isn’t the case. A few diehards still insist I should just get a hybrid if I want to save gas. Others are worried our building will be “overloaded”, wires will get hot and they’ll be left in the dark because of my car. Since my condo was built in the early 80’s, they’re afraid Duke Energy will say we need new wiring and everyone will be assessed a big fee just so I can have my car. So far DE hasn’t weighed in on the subject. I never mention the specific voltage or wattage I'd like unless directly asked...[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Like @bluetinc said, the best path might be to get elected to the BoD since it sounds like your association is much larger than mine. Best of luck[/FONT]
     
  13. auger

    auger Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Location:
    SoFL
    That's exactly what my parking spot is--a limited common element. However, it cannot be reassigned unless it is to comply with the ADA. That's not going to happen as my parking spot is not close to the entrance. By pure dumb-luck, it is directly below a sub-panel so the installation wouldn't be that difficult and completed hidden behind a post. It is a high-rise condo in Fort Lauderdale with 315 units.

    I've been very nice and patient with them for the past six months. I finally just wanted an answer so I submitted the arch mod request with "artist renderings," pictures of the outlet, etc.--which they have to respond to. It doesn't matter what argument I give, they had their mind made up when I brought it up in November. I just needed to spend hours putting that package together to get an answer.

    Before I got the car, I knew this was a possibility so I had a short term plan, and a long-term plan with a backup. Currently, I'm charging in a commercial garage down the street, but it's expensive and inconvenient. However, it is the only place in downtown Fort Lauderdale where I can leave my car to charge. If I lose that, I'm screwed in the short term.

    My long-term plan A was the NEMA outlet. That's out now. My plan B is the SuperCharger Tesla is supposed to put in this year somewhere near the intersection of I-95 and I-595. This happens to be about five miles from me. But it isn't built yet so you never know.

    However, on the Tesla forum, there are many people that don't think that SCs should be put near any city, even if it's at the intersection of two major interstates. That same group also believes that people who live near SuperChargers should not be allowed to use them. I don't know if this has much influence on Tesla's SC location decision making. I would guess very little, but . . .

    I decided to put this post on the FL, rather than charging, forum to see if any FL or Fort Lauderdale residents might know of a state or local statute that would help. I didn't know of any.

    Rather than doing anything rash, I've decided to keep plugging away with current charging solution. Board elections are held in the Fall. By that time, I should know if we have a new President, how serious they are about common area charging for everyone, and if Tesla is going to build the SC down the road.

    Thanks for the ideas, everybody.
     
  14. Seven7

    Seven7 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Messages:
    334
    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    Find an electrician that will install an outlet in the middle of the night, they probably won't notice it for awhile and then they can figure out how to make you remove it... just kidding (sort of)
     
  15. bobinfla

    bobinfla S-Vin 4086 Rdstr-Vin 0019

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    181
    Location:
    Land O'Lakes
    +1 I'm with Seven! At the risk of offending anyone here, I don't know how these busy-body types took all this power so they could let us know what we really want and need, since we're obviously incapable of making those decisions by ourselves. I don't and couldn't imagine ever living somewhere with an HOA, just dealing with the county is bad enough without having an extra layer.
     
  16. DieAbetic

    DieAbetic Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Lawyer here, and former small claims court mediator. I've dealt with more HOA disputes and arguments than I can count. Required disclaimer: this is not legal advice, I am not your lawyer, I don't know all the facts/HOA contract/etc.

    Unfortunately these issues are a common occurrence, especially in a community with more... senior residents. The amount of misinformation, stubbornness, and political toe-stepping can be astonishing at times.

    That being said, the best course of action is usually to change the balance of power. As others have outlined, this can be done either through change of the board, or forced association homeowner vote (if it is in the rules). Both will take a lot of time, headaches, and kiss-assing of your neighbors and the board. If it was me, I'd send around a single sheet of paper with all the facts to my neighbors, and explain the situation. Bring a little more 'sunshine' on the issues, show that the board is being unreasonable, and get the support of your neighbors. Most people that live in HOAs don't like all the rules, and have had a run-in with the board themselves. You'd be surprised how many neighbors will stand behind you once they learn the facts.

    If that doesn't work, the next step is to get experts' opinions on all the issues they have raised (overload, fire, costs, etc) and force the board into a corner with science. Please note: this does not always work immediately, but will help later on if you want to take over or change the board through a vote.

    By showing you are willing to fight for what you want, not only will your neighbors respect you - but it may help if you simply want to take over the president/architectural committee/etc chair.

    Good luck everyone. Hit me up with any questions/concerns
     
  17. tomas

    tomas Traded in 9 rep bars for M3, used to be somebody!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    2,100
    Location:
    Chicago/Montecito
    This The Oatmeal's Description and Review of his Magical Space Car is the most effective summary of the MS to entertain and charm those who don't know it. Because it is a cartoon and amusing (but also factual) they will take time to read.
     
  18. auger

    auger Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Location:
    SoFL
    Well, since I'm the only one with a fully electric car, nobody else really has a dog in this race; but I did have some support from the floor and no detractors. The next day I tried to explain the reason I was the only one with an electric car was the-chicken-and-the-egg concept to the BoD President, but it was for nothing--which I already knew. I fully expected a "Get a horse!" but I didn't get one. In all fairness, he does almost all of the Association work. In a building this large, it really is a voluntary full-time job.

    The middle of the night sounds great, :biggrin: but security on this place is tight, which is not all bad. The first time I drove my car home was very late on a Friday night. I parked in my own spot. By Saturday, I had a nasty-gram on my windshield informing me I didn't have a condo sticker on my window. I think they would notice the outlet. :wink:

    Yesterday, I again had to ask for a written answer to my arch mod request. I learned a long time ago, whether it is an individual, business, or organization, no one feels responsible if they never give you an answer. After six months, I forced the issue, and forced it in writing. Now that I have I signed denial, I'm going to use it to make a small effort in getting legislation passed in FL similar to CA, HI, CO, etc. I'll make a package--with my denial--to present to my local legislators. If they do something with it, great, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go. It won't do anything for me, but maybe it will help someone else years down the road. If anybody on the FL sub-forum knows a legislator that may be friendly to this, please let me know; and I'll contact them.

    I've not really been involved in the HOA since I've lived there because I've never had a problem. The experience has been educational and eye-widening. I just this week fully realized how much power the BoD President wields.

    After the meeting Tuesday, my first tendency was to go to the nuclear option. Instead, I just lobbed a grenade today. I gave them a copy of my owner petition (FL Statute 718--20% of the owners can force an item of business) to the office today to wrest control of the BoD meeting agenda from the President to the whole Board, i.e., any person on the Board can add an item to the meeting agenda. Only items on the agenda can be voted on; only the President can put items on the agenda currently. Hmmm. One person controls everything. This isn't good, and it's not in writing. I told the office manager if the President voluntarily puts it on the June agenda my petition would be pointless. Please give me an answer by Wednesday because I'm mailing it out Thursday.

    And it may not even pass. As far as I know, the majority of the BoD has never voted against the President. But at least their will be a vote, and a record of it, and people will know their condo fate is controlled by one person, and that's all I want. Actually, just doing the petition is, at least, informative.

    This absolutely won't help my cause. He's gonna be pissed, but this really doesn't have anything to do with him or my outlet. A bigger issue is at hand. Regardless who the President is, one person shouldn't control the entire agenda. We might as well get rid of the Board.

    There's more to say, but, wow, that's a long post! I'm killing some time before I get on this 10 hour plane ride. Have a great weekend, everybody!

    - - - Updated - - -

    I was typing the last post when DiAbetic and tomas posted. Thanks for the advice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    DieAbetic, were you watching me type? :scared: :biggrin:
     
  19. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    Have a safe flight!

    Would the local news be willing to cover this? Probably not but might be worth a shot. Pitch the story and let a reporter drive the car then get them to cover a story about EVs and condos in FL.
     
  20. Xenoilphobe

    Xenoilphobe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,651
    Location:
    Fairfax County Virginia
    Vote with your dollars and move out.
     

Share This Page