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Confused on Model S vs 3 Discussions

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Irishpilot, Sep 23, 2017.

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  1. Irishpilot

    Irishpilot Member

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    Okay, my Model S is scheduled for delivery in two weeks and I am also an early Model 3 reservation holder. I'm confused that most of the Model S vs 3 discussions revolve around price and tech. This seems to drive discussions towards "why buy an S for $30k more" where I see them as two cars targeting different buyers.

    I haven't seen the Model 3 in person, but from the spec sheets, the Model S is bigger and holds more cargo. Therefore, they are inherently different cars. The reason I switched is I have a family of four, we go on road trips and a larger vehicle is more suited for that. The Model 3 is the same size as my M3 and the M3 is a tad too small for us.

    From my perspective, for those of us who want more storage, options and a large, comfortable ride, the Model S delivers. Am I missing something as to why the constant comparing of two cars based on price and tech alone? It's kind of the same as comparing a BMW M5 and M3, both awesome cars but targeting totally different buyers.
     
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  2. tktktk

    tktktk New Member

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    My take is....most car companies have step up cars available from entry level up through luxury. The price points on the upper end, (feature heavy) of the entry model will bleed into MSRP for the next price point up through luxury....the difference here is there is such a gap in the highest end M3 and MSRP M75D (which will be the cheapest 75 long term). Therefore, my belief is that Tesla has to close the gap and lessen the price of the 75 or folks will question whether they can get by with the M3 and save tens of thousands of dollars. Even if they don't close that gap in the short term, the intro of many more Evs will force them to do the same in the long term.
     
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  3. brkaus

    brkaus Active Member

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    I think your right on track! I purchased an S for the size. Will get a 3 to replace our second car.

    I do think over time the price ranges of the cars will o relapse as well.
     
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  4. tpham07

    tpham07 Member

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    The S has things the 3 doesn't, but i wanted a bigger car. The 3 seems too compact, and im still bothered by the lack of a drivers dash display.
     
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  5. calisnow

    calisnow Banned

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    I think the reason you see this is that many Tesla enthusiasts do not understand or consume luxury goods in general and are not clear with or comfortable with the idea of diminishing marginal returns and of paying large sums of money (to them) for what are minor comfort differences. This applies to all luxury goods everywhere - these people would also be clueless about why you pay five figures or more for a Patek Phillipe.
     
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  6. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #6 Troy, Sep 23, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
    The first part is not exactly correct. The Model 3 has more headroom than the Model S.

    Headroom:
    Model 3: Front= 40.3”, Rear = 37.7”(source),
    Model S: Front= 38.8", Rear= 35.3" (source)

    That's not exactly correct either. The Model 3 is wider than the BMW M3 and it has a longer wheelbase:

    [​IMG]
    Data sources for the chart: Model 3, Model S, BMW M3 (Click on "See all Features and Specs")

    In addition, more range is important for long distance trips because it will allow skipping busy superchargers. The Model 3 80 has more range than all Tesla cars except the Model S 100D. Tesla is voluntarily lowering the Model 3 EPA range numbers. See the details here: Model 3 80 scored 334 miles EPA rated range but Tesla voluntarily lowered it to 310 miles

    Also, Supercharge rate is important for long distance trips as well because you will spend less time at Superchargers. Tesla's specs page here, says the following for the Model 3 80: Supercharging rate: 170 miles of range per 30 minutes. That's better than all other Teslas. The S100D adds 168 rated miles in 30 minutes. Tesla will sell more Model 3 80Ds than Model 3 80s but they haven't released any data about the Model 3 80D yet.

    In short, compared to the Model S 100D, the Model 3 80D has a few miles more range, a few minutes shorter Supercharge sessions, 1.5" more headroom in the front, 2.4" more in the rear seats, the same legroom and only 0.4 inches (1 cm) less width per rear seat and of course less cargo space.

    Compared to the Model S 75D, the Model 3 80D has 88 rated miles more range and 73 miles more real-world range. The Model S 75D adds 140 rated miles in 30 minutes supercharging and the Model 3 80D adds 175 miles rated range. The Model 3 75D has the same Supercharge rate as the Model 3 55D in terms of real-world range added in 30 minutes and it has only 12 miles more real-world range. Therefore, in terms of comparisons, it makes more sense to compare these cars:

    Model S 75 <> Model 3 55
    Model S 75D <> Model 3 55D
    Model S 100D <> Model 3 80D
    Model S P100D <> Model 3 P80D
     
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  7. Irishpilot

    Irishpilot Member

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    Troy, I agree with the range comparisons, but with the extra 11.2" of car length, you gain 15 cu ft storage. I know the longer range and lower price point are pulling potential Model S customers to the 3.
    Screenshot_20170923-204828.png
     
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  8. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    @Irishpilot, we are in agreement about the cargo space. Less cargo space was one of the things I mentioned in my comparison above. However, not everybody needs more than 15 cubic feet cargo space. Also, you can trade range for more cargo space by installing a roof rack. It will reduce your range but the Model 3 80/80D has plenty of range. The Model 3 roof rack can be attached regardless whether you have the glass or metal roof. Source.

    [​IMG]
    Photo source: https://www.walmart.com/ip/SportRack-SR7040-Getaway-L-Roof-Mount-Cargo-Box-15-Cubic-Feet-Black/55682624
     
  9. schonelucht

    schonelucht Active Member

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    In my experience, the trips that you need the storage space that a roof rack gives you, are also the trips where you need the range. Maybe the best solution is to buy a 3 for daily driving and rent a different car (possibly S100) when you need to (long) haul.
     
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  10. Navsarin

    Navsarin SP100D

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    #10 Navsarin, Sep 24, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017

    I've read many of your posts over the past months and in all of them you seem to be somewhat opposed to the model S and find every which way to discredit it vs the M3. Curious as to why? It's a beautiful machine. Do you own an MS and have experienced the sheer joy of the drive, the awesome auto suspension, the power, the handling and acceleration, the beauty of its aesthetics, the amount of cargo space, the all aluminum build...etc etc You've compared the M3 to the MS in numerous lists, highlighting features, inches, and with a clear biased opinion towards the 3 vs the S. Yes agreed the 3 will be a better bang for the buck/value but for the immediate short to mid term, it will in no way resemble, handle, accelerate or provide the same luxuries (power trunk, suspension, dual screens) as the MS does. And by the time Tesla starts incorporating more features into the M3, MS will be undergoing additional re designs and eventually a complete model refresh by 2019.

    I also don't believe comparing the fastest 4 door sedan on the planet P100D (on par with Ferrari, Porsche, GTR, corvette, mclaren etc) with an as yet unannounced and unsubstantiated P80D is correct. Tesla would not make its top end M3 surpass or equal its top end MS. Case in point, recently the 75D was updated to 4.3sec acceleration to allow for power differentiation between it and the M3 (5.8/5.2sec). The 100D may also see a power boost shortly to differentiate from the M380D.

    Price point, the 75D has reduced recently while incorporating more options. I imagine it may again shortly to continue to offer its customers better perceived value in order to convert more M3 Purchasers.

    Purchasing one Tesla model over another is not always about headroom in inches. There is style, comfort, luxury, prestige of ownership, cargo, warranty, unlim supercharging, handling, power etc. Some would even avoid an M3 much as a 5 series driver would avoid the mass market 3 series. Same leather, same engine, same screen, same BMW style yet there are those who gladly pay more for different class of car and not driving one of the mass market models. (Side note here that the MS hands down is a sheer beauty to look at, the M3 is ok but not jaw dropping in its curves).

    Those who have purchased an M3, excellent! I've one on order as well. We will be driving an amazing vehicle. Value? You bet. Same level of Luxury or performance as an S? No. But for the price point, one cannot expect as much.

    Those who have purchased an MS (love ours) or MX in any form, well done and thanks for supporting even further r&d into MS, MX, MY and upcoming Roadster :) I'm sure I'd have many MS owners in agreement here.
     
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  11. Carl

    Carl Supporting Member

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    Can't comment on comfort, luxury, handling etc. until we have been able to drive both cars but I would dare say that on paper, @Troy has a point : one could prefer a fully spec'd M3 (probably around 60,000 EUR over here) over the current Tesla MS with the same range (which is double that price). But I'm also sure that by the time we are actually given the choice (i.e. we can order either car with a similar lead time), we'll not be talking about the same MS as shows up today in the design studio!
     
  12. Navsarin

    Navsarin SP100D

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    Agreed! On paper the M3 is the better 'value' as stated by Troy :) Just mentioning that for some its not about the fully spec'd 3 vs the S. there are far more considerations than paper specs.
     
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  13. SSedan

    SSedan Member

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    This is FAR too much common sense for someone who can't tell the difference between passenger space and cargo space and seems to deliberately leave out hip and shoulder room.
    Model 3 then model S
    Shoulder room (front) 56.3 inches 57.7 inches
    Shoulder room (rear) 54.0 inches 55.0 inches
    Hip room (front) 53.4 inches 55.0 inches
    Hip room (rear) 52.4 inches 54.7 inches

    For those of us who use the back seat a couple inches of hip room matters, though I will say the MS back seat headroom is lacking for an average adult male.
     
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  14. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #14 Troy, Sep 24, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    Hi, @Navsarin. The theme of my messages is to clear-up misconceptions with data. These days, the misconceptions are centered around the Model 3 but that wasn't always the case. I've picked two of my messages that summarize what I mostly write about but I will cut this short because I don't want to derail this thread.

    ---
    Tesla doesn't want to talk about the Model 3 P80D but that doesn't mean it's unconfirmed. The Model 3 performance version was confirmed by Elon here. Initially, Elon said production might start at the end of March 2018 here, but then more recently he said mid-2018 here. The Model 3 P80D is expected to have about the same range as the Model S P100D, same performance as the Model S P85D and I would expect the price to start around $74K USD.
     
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    Yes, you are, but it is easy to miss.
    Tesla, both the company and cars, is not your typical product.
    Years ago, if someone wanted an all electric vehicle that got more than ~80 miles you had one choice, Tesla.
    For many, they never had bought a car that expensive, or large. Fast forward a few years and now there are extremely short list of cars that get 200 or more miles. This results in comparisons of any cars that have 200+ miles.
    I have heard numerous people compare the Model S and Bolt.

    For people like you with a family of 4 the choice is more clear cut. For others, not so much.
     
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  16. Navsarin

    Navsarin SP100D

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    Thanks Troy for clarification. :) Based on Elons tweets above (which are dubious at best in predicting actual reality lol) yes agreed there will be a performance version of the M3. Even Elon noted it will not even as powerful as the S due to battery size limits.

    I believe again both cars will have their market and will play on their differentiating features. In the end, the MS must evolve or risk falling behind in the latest and greatest in tech for 50-60% the price. That being said the MS is currently still king of the hill with respect to current day options, luxuries and performance in an EV. If the P80D comes to fruition, I agree with you the likely price range will be double that of the base model M3
     
  17. azred

    azred Member

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    #17 azred, Sep 24, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    Not sure about your math re range vs 75D. I thought 75D range is 259. If so, how are you coming up with the 88/73 differences? It seems like it should be 75/51 assuming the Model 3 numbers are 334/310.

    Also, what's the basis for stating the small battery dual motor has only 12 miles less range? It seems like it will probably be around 230 -- when it's rated -- versus 259? I applaud your effort to clear up data inconsistencies and Elon could use your help to downsell the S.
     
  18. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #18 Troy, Sep 24, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    88 rated miles was about the Model 3 80D, not the Model 3 80. The Model 3 80 scored 334 mi EPA before the voluntary reduction to 310 miles. That means the Model 3 80D should score about 347 mi EPA. 347-259= 88 rated miles. The Model S 75D didn't have any voluntary reduction.

    My calculation was 235 - 223 = 12 miles.
    235 miles: Model S 75D's range at 65 mph based on this range test by Consumer Reports.
    223 miles: Model 3 55D's range at 65 mph based on the following calculation.

    Model S 75D scored 358.49 mi in EPA highway dyno tests. It has 235 miles real world range. The ratio is 0.655.
    Model 3 80D scored 454.64 mi in EPA highway dyno tests. It should have 454.64*0.655= 298 miles real-world range at 65 mph.

    The smaller Model 3 pack has 2976 cells and the larger one has 4416 cells (source). The ratio is 2976/4416= 0.674
    Therefore the Model 3 55 should have 298*0.674= 200.8 mi real-world range at 65 mph if it had the same weight as the Model 3 80 but it weighs less. Therefore I added 6% extra. That means 213 miles at 65 mph for the Model 3 55. I added 10 miles more for Model 3 55D. That's 223 miles at 65 mph.

    @dhanson865,
    I have added you to my ignore list because of the downvote in #6. I wish you good luck.
     
  19. Don85D

    Don85D Member

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    What if there are no future Model S versions coming and we have unique limited production cars like the Roadster? The Model 3 could slowly increase in size as most entry models do over a few years and if there is another S it might be a limo or taxi duty vehicle.

    We may be stuck in an old paradigm of how automobiles are marketed to the public. Does anyone care what a fully autonomous car looks like as long as it does the job? There is a good chance that we will not even own autonomous driving vehicles. They'll be a utility.

    This may not happen in my lifetime but I have a feeling that a bigger change is underway.
     
  20. futurem3owner

    futurem3owner 2017 90D

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    It does make me wonder what changes Model S faces with Model 3 being so sparse interiorly due to autonomous focus. Model S will continue being produced since it's aimed at the upscale market. It will likely also follow suit by keeping the interior barebones but the focus will be more on offering more luxurious and comfort based interior aimed at autonomous lifestyle and privacy.
     

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