Considering 2021 Model 3 - Trade-offs to current cars on my mind

[DaveRZ]

They're all paid off. So we have some decisions to make.

I'd stick with what you have, honestly. I really like my model 3 and its done everything I've needed it to do for the year and a half I've had it. It's had zero problems other than an annoying rattle or two. I fixed one, Tesla fixed the other. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the car to anyone, EXCEPT you. You already have the best of all worlds (top down sports car, family road trip mobile that can do light offroading and still get good mileage being a TDI, and a roomy EV that is your economy car). I'm not seeing what "problem" you have that buying the Tesla would solve... ... unless you have too much money in your wallet and really want a car payment and a decent jump in insurance rates.

There's a ton of EVs coming out in the next couple years, and even a new model 3 at some point, with probably significantly better batteries, faster charging, better auto-driving, hopefully more consistent build quality, etc... If you still want one later, get one later. For now, enjoy your PAID OFF vehicles.

 

[dmurphy]

Just checked out your Surveyor. Nice rig! Way roomier with the slide out than our little Lance. Quite a bit heavier. If we had younger kids or grandkids, might be an interesting camper for us, but as things stand, we'll stand pat.

Thanks for sharing.

Where we live, the best camping is a bit removed, and several thousand feet in elevation higher. This ain't the flatlands...

thank you! A week away from picking it up and then we’ll really see what this X can do. I don’t have a backup plan.
The Surveyor is well equipped for what we want in that size - having a hard time finding something else decked out with more feature-functions in its weight class.

We’re here on the east coast so dry camping is a lot less of a thing here. Convincing my wife to camp without running water or electricity would be ... challenging.
That said, I’m jealous!! Those mountain views you have are like none other.

 

[frontrangeM3]

I'd stick with what you have, honestly. I really like my model 3 and its done everything I've needed it to do for the year and a half I've had it. It's had zero problems other than an annoying rattle or two. I fixed one, Tesla fixed the other. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the car to anyone, EXCEPT you. You already have the best of all worlds (top down sports car, family road trip mobile that can do light offroading and still get good mileage being a TDI, and a roomy EV that is your economy car). I'm not seeing what "problem" you have that buying the Tesla would solve... ... unless you have too much money in your wallet and really want a car payment and a decent jump in insurance rates.

There's a ton of EVs coming out in the next couple years, and even a new model 3 at some point, with probably significantly better batteries, faster charging, better auto-driving, hopefully more consistent build quality, etc... If you still want one later, get one later. For now, enjoy your PAID OFF vehicles.

You bring up some great points, hence my question to the cloud. Not that we have a ton of money burning a hole in our pockets... Definitely not. We would arrange things to not have much of a payment. Between the 2 sales, and a potential incentive if proposed legislation passes, the model 3 would not be a big hit cash flow wise. I think I can get into one for a few hundred a month.

I expect the Leaf will likely depreciate pretty strongly this year, so not cash flow, but still an expense. Leaf turns 2 in July. I think once more options appear, it will lose value quickly.

I looked into the insurance question, sounds like dropping both cars and replacing with a model 3 would likely save us several hundred a year in insurance. Not breakeven with a loan to be sure, but it helps.

The 2021 refresh signaled to me that the model 3 will likely stand pat hardware wise for a while. They have other fish to fry in the next 24 months or so. So if the incentive comes to pass, now's the time.

On the other hand, we could just cut our depreciation expense and wait, i.e. sell the Leaf and keep the Z. Financially speaking, that probably makes the most sense. We're not exactly wearing out any of these cars.

Like I say, we have some decisions to make. Thanks for your input.

 

[charlieaf92]

I'd recommend test driving a model 3 performance. My previous daily drivers were a first generation Z4 (3.0 with sport package) and a 911 C4S (996 generation) both 6 speeds. Both were fun to drive but not really comfortable for running errands and day to drive grind in traffic. The Model 3 Performance accelerates effortlessly and mind-meltingly fast - it easily leaves just about anything in the dust at stop lights without even trying. On a day to day driving basis it is more enjoyable and fun than either of the previous cars. Sure on twisty roads with no traffic its not as enjoyable, but I find that 90+% of the time I'm not in the scenario so smile per mile the P3D beats them both.

On top of that, Tesla really has re-imagined what personal transportation is. Designing the car from the ground up with an electric powertrain in mind allowed them to do so many little things that just make it a superior vehicle. Safety, driver's aides, the ability to pre-heat/cool the car even when its in your garage, getting immediate heat in the winter, brake pads last 150k miles and you get almost no brake dust on the wheels, almost no maintenance, insane traction control with power modulation, etc, etc, etc. The list really goes on and on - in retrospect it really makes gas powered cars seem archaic and stupid by comparison. There are just so many major advantages to electric.

From a build quality standpoint, it's acceptable but definitely not up to BMW/Audi standards in my opinion. But the parts you touch day to day and really notice are adequate.

Anyway best of luck on your search. For me the selling point was the immediate and ridiculous acceleration - it's usable at normal driving speeds on normal roads without the worry of loss of traction. I've driven faster and more powerful cars (a C7 Z06 most recently) but they just can't put power down at normal roadway speeds like a Tesla can.

 

[frontrangeM3]

I'd recommend test driving a model 3 performance. My previous daily drivers were a first generation Z4 (3.0 with sport package) and a 911 C4S (996 generation) both 6 speeds. Both were fun to drive but not really comfortable for running errands and day to drive grind in traffic. The Model 3 Performance accelerates effortlessly and mind-meltingly fast - it easily leaves just about anything in the dust at stop lights without even trying. On a day to day driving basis it is more enjoyable and fun than either of the previous cars. Sure on twisty roads with no traffic its not as enjoyable, but I find that 90+% of the time I'm not in the scenario so smile per mile the P3D beats them both.

On top of that, Tesla really has re-imagined what personal transportation is. Designing the car from the ground up with an electric powertrain in mind allowed them to do so many little things that just make it a superior vehicle. Safety, driver's aides, the ability to pre-heat/cool the car even when its in your garage, getting immediate heat in the winter, brake pads last 150k miles and you get almost no brake dust on the wheels, almost no maintenance, insane traction control with power modulation, etc, etc, etc. The list really goes on and on - in retrospect it really makes gas powered cars seem archaic and stupid by comparison. There are just so many major advantages to electric.

From a build quality standpoint, it's acceptable but definitely not up to BMW/Audi standards in my opinion. But the parts you touch day to day and really notice are adequate.

Anyway best of luck on your search. For me the selling point was the immediate and ridiculous acceleration - it's usable at normal driving speeds on normal roads without the worry of loss of traction. I've driven faster and more powerful cars (a C7 Z06 most recently) but they just can't put power down at normal roadway speeds like a Tesla can.

All good points. Having driven the LR AWD a couple of times in recent weeks, I'd say the performance is more than adequate for my needs around town. Arguably overkill. The M3P would be a bridge too far budget-wise. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I may drive a MY just for the heck of it. Really don't need 2 SUVs. And towing in the mountains is not a thing yet for BEVs. While we keep the camper, the Q5 is our tow rig.

Responsiveness is definitely addicting. I actually care more about that than "being first". I'm a reasonably successful, middle-aged guy in decent shape who's been happily married to the same gal for over 30 years. What do I have to prove, really? Not a damn thing.

Even our little Leaf+ is a bit of beast off the line, and it's certainly no Tesla. I goosed it one day at a stop light, just having a little fun, not really paying attention or trying hard, and then I hear this engine screaming on my right... Guy in an X5 failing miserably to outgun my little urban corridor runabout before his lane ran out - probably had no idea the Leaf is electric. He was going to need a lot more road than he had to pull ahead, was barely keeping up. I tapped the brakes to let him in. Whatever.

Funny story though. Surprised the heck out of him, I bet. The bigger battery and stronger motor make it a surprisingly spunky little thing.

 

[oreobbq]

Even our little Leaf+ is a bit of beast off the line, and it's certainly no Tesla. I goosed it one day at a stop light, just having a little fun, not really paying attention or trying hard, and then I hear this engine screaming on my right... Guy in an X5 failing miserably to outgun my little urban corridor runabout before his lane ran out - probably had no idea the Leaf is electric. He was going to need a lot more road than he had to pull ahead, was barely keeping up. I tapped the brakes to let him in. Whatever.

Funny story though. Surprised the heck out of him, I bet. The bigger battery and stronger motor make it a surprisingly spunky little thing.

Was it towing an airstream or a yacht?

 

[EnrgyNDpndnce]

First new post here. Empty nesters, Denver Area. Have 2007 Z4 roadster (toy car), 2015 Q5 TDI (sporty camper tug) and 2019 Leaf SL+ (urban corridor runabout). Considering combining the Z4 and the Leaf+ into a Model 3 LR AWD. Have test driven before, briefly at least, have some understanding of the EV scene, but not of the Tesla twists to car ownership and travel. Been reading up here and chatting with the couple of owners I know.

The Leaf+ offers about 240 miles of real world range in town in the summer time, and roughly 200 in winter running snow tires in Denver, unless it's really cold. I don't drive it like a baby carriage either. We routinely see about 4.3 mi/kwh in summer and 3.5-3.9 in winter. Ours has every option available, including 2-tone leather, a decent sound system, LED lights all around, more than enough power for day-to-day, and a heat pump to help in winter (no fancy octovalve, but it does work to heat the cabin with minimal range impact, sometimes simpler isn't all bad...). Interior is an updated version of what we've always known. Apple Car Play and Andriod Auto standard. DCFC is Chademo of course. I've never used it. We charge at home 100% of the time (so far) using a 14-50 240v line on a dedicated 50 amp GFCI circuit.

NIssan's standard "Pro-Pilot" is comparable to Tesla's basic autopilot from what I gather, but does offer rear cross-traffic alert. It works well enough as long as the cameras are clean. I rarely use it, since we're not on the highway that often with this car. I've taken it as far as Ft Collins north of us to visit family, 135 miles round trip in summer, got home with 100 miles of range showing. For bopping around town, it's a great little FWD car. Not fancy, but it drives nice, handles nice, and is dead quiet. Under-appreciated overall, I think.

I expect the Leaf to depreciate pretty steeply in the next 12 months. So far it's holding value quite well after incentives. We all but stole it back in 2019. 40% off! But the lack of TMS on the battery and the newer cars coming out will not help its resale. It just isn't desirable enough on the market to hold its own.

The Z is a hoot to drive. 6 speed stick, short throw shifter to die for, silky smooth in-line 6, light-weight, goes exactly where you point it in the instant you do so. Loud on the highway. Not an over-the-road car in traffic. Mountain road, afternoon trip for lunch car seems to be the sweet spot. So it's a little limited. Once we sell it, there's no looking back though. We'll never again own anything quite like it. Still has low miles, so it's got a little value, but once we put another 5-10 thousand on it, that will evaporate.

Since I'm not patient with "twitchy" cars that can disappoint in a big way in a pinch, I'm a little gun-shy on the model 3. Not sure it's a good fit. Folks who've had a great experience sing its praises, others sing a decidedly different tune. Tesla has it's own way of doing things, and it's their way or the highway. I do appreciate fine engineering, and being in IT I for the last 20-some years, I have some understanding for how hard things are to get right.

Tomorrow I'm going for yet another test drive. We have a newer service center near us, so that helps, and the 2021 refresh has addressed some of our concerns from past test drives (heat pump, and wind noise, mostly). The interior takes some getting used to, but at least the UI is better now.

I'm on a Tesla board here, talking with enthusiasts. Given all that above, what should I be thinking about on this test drive? What kind of pros and cons have you run into in your transition from pre-Tesla to Tesla ownership?

I too had a Leaf before getting the Model 3. Mine was a 2015 with 84 miles of rated range. Still, great little car that served us well for 3.5 years until my daughter (was diving and) was rear ended by a full sized pickup that totaled the Leaf. My daughter walked away without a scratch, and for that I will always be grateful to Nissan.

We got the LR AWD Model 3 in Oct 2018 and haven’t had a single regret. 105k miles and counting driven across 8 states and using dozens of Superchargers. This is quite frankly the best car I have ever owned. Long trips are a breeze, and I love driving it around winding mountain roads. Mine is maximized for range with 18” wheels, but since you’re a Z4 driving enthusiast guy you might want to upgrade wheels and tires even though you’ll sacrifice a bit of range. You get used to the minimalist interior real quick and after a few weeks it will seem normal. In fact now, when I have to drive my wife’s Volvo, I really dislike all the knobs and buttons (not to mention the rancid smell of dead Dino juice when I fill up the tank for her).

 

[frontrangeM3]

Was it towing an airstream or a yacht?

No, it just couldn't keep up. Funny what max torque from 0 rpm can do for you.

You haven't driven a Leaf+, I'd wager. The plus makes 250 lb ft of torque. Weighs 3800#.

 

[zer0cool]

Assuming the Z4 is in good condition, I definitely wouldn't part it for a model 3. The fact is the Z4 is much more fun to drive. You got stick and hydraulic steering, both of which enthusiasts desire. Also the car is only like 3000 pound so MUCH MUCH more tossable. In addition to handling, the fact is electric acceleration feels so much different from that of gas car - it's punchy instead of linear. Honestly after the initial exhilaration of the instant acceleration, it kind of gets old after not that much time. I enjoy gasoline car's acceleration feeling better, even if it's slower - it just better entices you to drive at speed, instead of just turning on AP and let the car cruise. It's not something easy to pick up at test drives - took me a few months to figure out.

Of course the model 3 is a much more superior commuter car; so if it's for that purpose, then I would recommend it over most other cars at the same price range.

 

[charlieaf92]

Assuming the Z4 is in good condition, I definitely wouldn't part it for a model 3. The fact is the Z4 is much more fun to drive. You got stick and hydraulic steering, both of which enthusiasts desire. Also the car is only like 3000 pound so MUCH MUCH more tossable. In addition to handling, the fact is electric acceleration feels so much different from that of gas car - it's punchy instead of linear. Honestly after the initial exhilaration of the instant acceleration, it kind of gets old after not that much time. I enjoy gasoline car's acceleration feeling better, even if it's slower - it just better entices you to drive at speed, instead of just turning on AP and let the car cruise. It's not something easy to pick up at test drives - took me a few months to figure out.

Of course the model 3 is a much more superior commuter car; so if it's for that purpose, then I would recommend it over most other cars at the same price range.

My first gen Z4 had electric power steering and I suspect the 2nd gen does as well. Not nearly as good as the Porsche with hydraulic. You're spot on regarding manual transmissions though. They will only become more desirable to enthusiasts as time goes on.

 

[frontrangeM3]

My first gen Z4 had electric power steering and I suspect the 2nd gen does as well. Not nearly as good as the Porsche with hydraulic. You're spot on regarding manual transmissions though. They will only become more desirable to enthusiasts as time goes on.

Honestly, the e85 steering isn't so bad - it goes exactly where I point it the instant I do so. Love that. I agree that the stick will only become more desirable for enthusiasts as time goes on. It also has a glass rear window in the soft top, which is nice.

We had a e36 M3 (the original M3, not the Tesla version, lol) that became an absolute nightmare. Couldn't fix the soft top, kept finding new ways to break for $2k a pop. Sold it to a friend who wanted to restore it. Wished him luck. The e85 has a soft top that is vastly simpler. Hoping for the best with it. So far so good.

I'm not really a project car guy. Yes I can swing a wrench, but the truth is, I have other things I want to do on my weekends. When it becomes a money pit, I'll sell the dang thing. Until then, I think I'll keep it around.

 

[MikeyC]

I just traded my 2 year old Chevy Bolt for a M3LR AWD two days ago so, I get it. Before the Bolt I owned 2 Corvettes, both 6 speed manuals, so even though I went the economy car route for a couple years, I have something to compare. I won't address performance and handling because you really have to drive it enough to see if it's what you want. But as far as what to look for, concentrate on what you are used to and how it might be different in the Model 3. For example, I was so worried that I'd never find good music channels as I was so used to Sirius/XM. I was dead set that I'd never find something I liked as much, but I was wrong: there are plenty of options as good or better on the Model 3. Does the Leaf have a 360 birds-eye camera? That's one thing I truly miss on the Model 3. When pulling into an angled spot where the front of the parking spot is difficult to judge or when you want to pull up close to a concrete parking bumper, there is zero feedback on the Model 3 to help with pulling into a space front-first. If you are used to a 360 birds-eye view, that's a bummer. I'll get used to it (remember it's only been 2 days for me) so it's not really a sticking point in the long run. Same goes for Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. Are you OK being without those? Finally, your Z4 is about the same overall length as my Bolt was. The Model 3 is almost 2 feet longer so it's likely going to be less maneuverable in tight spots and you might not be able to fit well in some shorter parking spaces.

Those are just some things that came up for me. I got the LR AWD knowing the M3P would give me more performance, track mode, etc. but I also realize that if I get "bored" with 0-60 in 4.2s, I can buy the performance upgrade for $2000 in the future to refresh things and make it a pretty good match (acceleration wise) to the M3P. Coming from a Bolt (which isn't slow), the LR AWD is already neck-snapping. So I'll take it one step at a time.

Good luck on your decision.

Mike

 

[frontrangeM3]

I just traded my 2 year old Chevy Bolt for a M3LR AWD two days ago so, I get it. Before the Bolt I owned 2 Corvettes, both 6 speed manuals, so even though I went the economy car route for a couple years, I have something to compare. I won't address performance and handling because you really have to drive it enough to see if it's what you want. But as far as what to look for, concentrate on what you are used to and how it might be different in the Model 3. For example, I was so worried that I'd never find good music channels as I was so used to Sirius/XM. I was dead set that I'd never find something I liked as much, but I was wrong: there are plenty of options as good or better on the Model 3. Does the Leaf have a 360 birds-eye camera? That's one thing I truly miss on the Model 3. When pulling into an angled spot where the front of the parking spot is difficult to judge or when you want to pull up close to a concrete parking bumper, there is zero feedback on the Model 3 to help with pulling into a space front-first. If you are used to a 360 birds-eye view, that's a bummer. I'll get used to it (remember it's only been 2 days for me) so it's not really a sticking point in the long run. Same goes for Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. Are you OK being without those? Finally, your Z4 is about the same overall length as my Bolt was. The Model 3 is almost 2 feet longer so it's likely going to be less maneuverable in tight spots and you might not be able to fit well in some shorter parking spaces.

Those are just some things that came up for me. I got the LR AWD knowing the M3P would give me more performance, track mode, etc. but I also realize that if I get "bored" with 0-60 in 4.2s, I can buy the performance upgrade for $2000 in the future to refresh things and make it a pretty good match (acceleration wise) to the M3P. Coming from a Bolt (which isn't slow), the LR AWD is already neck-snapping. So I'll take it one step at a time.

Good luck on your decision.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Great input.

Yep, the Leaf has 360 degree camera, and I love it. I would miss that, definitely. I wish I could add it to our Audi, which I want to keep around as a camper tug for a few more years. Surprised with all the cameras that the Teslas sport, that they don't have that. No reason not to.

We have and use the Sirius XM in the Audi partly because we take it where good 'ol FM doesn't reach. But in truth, we still listen to HD radio when we're in the car. Playlists are nice, but I like letting someone else choose. I often find new music that way, without working at it. I'm sure we can make the music work well enough to suit us.

Performance-wise, I think if I get bored with 4 second to 60 times, it's time for a perspective reset... That's plenty fast. Heck, the Leaf has plenty of giddyup to manage any kind of real-world in-town traffic scenario as I outlined above. I think it's in the 6.5s range, but 0-30 is a fraction of that. It just doesn't have any top-end, unsurprisingly.

 

[dmurphy]

Yep, the Leaf has 360 degree camera, and I love it. I would miss that, definitely. I wish I could add it to our Audi, which I want to keep around as a camper tug for a few more years. Surprised with all the cameras that the Teslas sport, that they don't have that. No reason not to.

That's the #1 thing I miss from my Caddy. The problem is that the Tesla cameras are in the wrong spot. The 360-degree systems have a cam under each side-view mirror... Not sure why Tesla never added one there, but that's the crux of the issue. Too many blind spots.

We have and use the Sirius XM in the Audi partly because we take it where good 'ol FM doesn't reach. But in truth, we still listen to HD radio when we're in the car. Playlists are nice, but I like letting someone else choose. I often find new music that way, without working at it. I'm sure we can make the music work well enough to suit us.

I added an XM receiver to my Model 3, because I agree with you. I don't want to work at it - don't want to choose, don't want to define static playlists, I want something human-curated that "flows". Nothing beats XM in that department. I'm also wholly uninterested in finding new music - as far as I'm concerned, music never made it past Y2K.

 

[Xambler]

Honestly, the e85 steering isn't so bad - it goes exactly where I point it the instant I do so. Love that. I agree that the stick will only become more desirable for enthusiasts as time goes on. It also has a glass rear window in the soft top, which is nice.

We had a e36 M3 (the original M3, not the Tesla version, lol) that became an absolute nightmare. Couldn't fix the soft top, kept finding new ways to break for $2k a pop. Sold it to a friend who wanted to restore it. Wished him luck. The e85 has a soft top that is vastly simpler. Hoping for the best with it. So far so good.

I'm not really a project car guy. Yes I can swing a wrench, but the truth is, I have other things I want to do on my weekends. When it becomes a money pit, I'll sell the dang thing. Until then, I think I'll keep it around.

Funny you should mention that. Here is a picture I just took of our “M3s” (1998 and 2020). Traded in our BMW X5 on the Tesla and sold my mint 1991 Miata at same time (garage space and couldn’t convince wife to sell her convertible). As you can see the BMW has just gathered dust and stuff since we bought the Tesla over a year ago. Love the Model 3 for mountain driving (it’s a sleeper model) and just blasting around Florida as well. The X5 was a massive money pit and was on its 4th very very expensive water pump...the M3 has been so so as long as I don’t let the bmw dealership touch it. And yes, the top is going to be a future project. As is the dent I just put in wife’s bmw m3 the other day (tripped over the dog and it was either fall against the old car or the new car...had to think fast...over 20 years without a scratch. Sigh.)

 

[MikeyC]

That's the #1 thing I miss from my Caddy. The problem is that the Tesla cameras are in the wrong spot. The 360-degree systems have a cam under each side-view mirror... Not sure why Tesla never added one there, but that's the crux of the issue. Too many blind spots.

Yeah, just a front bumper camera would be an okay substitute, but I get that they don't want to have a dot in the middle of the bumper. Maybe they could put one in the grill opening and the bottom lip wouldn't block it too much? I just need some sort of indication of how far I am from the concrete parking bumper or the line at the front of the space. I don't have much problem if the spaces are straight but those angled spots are a PITA because it's hard to judge. With the 360 camera, I was able to exactly center it in the spot and pull right up to the front every time. Can't believe in a car with this level of tech that I have to actually learn to park again and not do it like I'm playing a video game. I'll get used to it.

Mike

 

[frontrangeM3]

Agree. It is a surprising design that way, but then, Teslas don't support rear cross-traffic either, which is an even bigger miss. Even my Leaf has that.

The tech package on the Leaf is not bad considering what it is. And what it sells for after incentives. We paid $27k in Colorado in 2019. Like a very well equipped Corolla, but without the wheezy weak motor and all the road noise. I actually priced them out. At the time, a similarly equipped Mazda 3 hatchback was $2k more and the Corolla $1k less. Best value by far was the Leaf.

Incentives are down a little now, but it's still a great value. Despite all the shortcomings.

 

[charlieaf92]

Honestly, the e85 steering isn't so bad - it goes exactly where I point it the instant I do so. Love that. I agree that the stick will only become more desirable for enthusiasts as time goes on. It also has a glass rear window in the soft top, which is nice.

We had a e36 M3 (the original M3, not the Tesla version, lol) that became an absolute nightmare. Couldn't fix the soft top, kept finding new ways to break for $2k a pop. Sold it to a friend who wanted to restore it. Wished him luck. The e85 has a soft top that is vastly simpler. Hoping for the best with it. So far so good.

I'm not really a project car guy. Yes I can swing a wrench, but the truth is, I have other things I want to do on my weekends. When it becomes a money pit, I'll sell the dang thing. Until then, I think I'll keep it around.

Yeah the steering wasn't bad my any means, but it felt dead compared to the 911 where you felt every nuance in the road. That being said I found the Z4 to handle very predictably and provide great feedback prior to losing the rear end. I never drove it on a track but I suspect it would have been a lot of fun.

 

[boiler81]

I love my LR AWD and its by far the best car I've owned, and the one I chose to drive 97% of the time.
That being said, I've kept my 2006 Miata roadster, because every so often you want the visceral feel of the wind in your hair and sounds of a revving engine or just want to be one with your surroundings.

My M3 is great but it isn't good "windows down" car, so your driving is somewhat isolated from your surroundings.
So keep your Z4 if budget and parking space allows.