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Discussion in 'Model S' started by cloudoc1, Oct 29, 2016.
I said "almost". There are exceptions, but not very many.
How many people here participated in the survey? I know I didn't and I have had 3 model S's. You have to be a member of CR to complete a survey. That in itself makes the data crap. Demographically I will bet very few people who buy this car complete surveys for consumer reports. I refuse to waste my time unless there is something in it for me.
Fair enough. How do you feel about True Delta then? You don't have to be a member to fill out the survey there I don't believe. Interestingly, they rate the Model S similarly to CR.
True Delta is less useful than CR because it suffers from (self) selection bias.
True. CRs survey is self selecting as well, I don't normally fill mine out, honestly, unless I have a bone to pick. But that in itself can be useful. If fewer folks feel the need to fill out a survey for their Lexus than for their Tesla and MB, that might show a relative trend.
I think all the reliability ratings are done by survey, unfortunately. I don't think anyone is getting the data from the manufacturers directly. So we are stuck with imperfect measures.
Enough to meet CR's stats requirements.
True, so can CR be. However, the same bias is present for all other manufacturers and cars, so maybe absolute stats are a little off, but comparing between different cars should be OK.
Seems like unless you are a stock holder, it doesn't really matter what CR thinks.... what matters is whether you like your Model S.
Now I know Tesla is doing something very challenging and difficult. They are truly pushing the envelope. But I have to agree with consumer reports in my Tesla has been in the shop more than any other car I have owned. Yes the service is good and they have taken care of me. But there remains a lot of work to get the the quality level I have experienced in other cars, like a Ford Escort, Toyota Camry, Chevy Nova, Chevy Avalanche, Chevy Volt and Toyota Prius all of which I kept over 100,000 miles. I have 40,000 miles on my Tesla over the last 6 years.
I didn't even know True Delta did this! I used to use these service when I bought ICE Cars. I think their data would be more accurate...
Either way it doesn't represent my experience with Tesla and I am OCD.
Many issues show up after a few years so saying newer models have less issues is not really meaningless. And looking at the Model X shows that Tesla does not have quality control where it needs to be. Last be not least, you can't exclude older cars. That's what counts a lot. Reliability is really about how cars hold up over the years, so all cars on the road count.
Care to back up that fact with some data and a source? Reliability is a statistical measurement, so what statistical data is there to back up your statement? Saying it's a fact doesn't make it true.
All you have to do is read this forum to know reliability has been drastically improved. Hint: go all the way back to 2012 posts and read forward to this point in time.
CR giving Tesla a reliability score based on a handful of owners who decided to fill out a questionnaire doesn't make their assertion true either. But then you knew that.
Yes, of course. The reliability of the first few thousand cars is what's most important to people buying a car today, particularly when said vehicle gets multiple engineering changes every week and the car keeps being improved. You'd think Tesla was operating just like all the other OEMs who make changes to their cars every 5 or so years, whether they need them or not. CR and some here have the same problem; thinking Tesla does no improvements to the car's reliability and will simply wait until there's a serious issue to then go recall them all to fix them.
It's telling that the MB S class also has low reliability. I think it's simply an issue of people with expensive cars are more likely to complain about little stuff. Especially when it's covered by warranty.
Calling somebody an anecdote is hardly insulting. That's what we all are individually.
Or....the "multiple engineering changes" are to fix what's broken. You can call that "improvement" if it makes you feel better but if the car is improving from a reliability perspective (and I agree with you on that) then it will show that in the data over time. So far it hasn't.
I just don't think Tesla's engineering and manufacturing quality is there yet. I'm sorry to say. PD recently published a photo showing that his ultrasonic sensors are held in place behind the bumper with nothing more than zip ties. ZIP TIES! I think you'd be hard pressed to find such a low bar in a German, or even Japanese, car.
@Amped With 4 drive unit changes I can see why you might not believe that Tesla cars are of the highest quality, but that's hardly been most people's experience. I've only had 1 drive unit change!! LOL
What's wrong with zip ties? It's at least as secure if not more than the little plastic clips that have held together most of my cars in the past.