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Consumer Reports Model 3 reliability rating: reliable?

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There are guys who dislike CR. There are guys who like CR. There are guys who are indifferent to CR.

But you know what they all have in common?

There is no way that you will ever convince anyone, in any of those groups, to change their mind(s). They are in one of the camps above, and they'll *stay* in one of the camps above, no matter how long or how well thought out an argument you might make to convince a guy in one camp that he's wrong. So why bother?

Just stay in your camp and be happy. But trying to argue one guy from one camp to another (or tell him he's wrong) is just silly.
 
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Oh, I don't think they are particularly biased. Most of their errors are due to cluelessness, stupidity, and methodological intransigence.

If all you care about in automotive reviews (or reviews of other products) is customer satisfaction ratings, then by all means, ignore everything else. Personally, I want to know other details. Even if a car has the best customer satisfaction rating ever, I want to know about its crashworthiness, about how it accelerates and stops, about its fuel economy, about the reliability of the model, and so on. As I said earlier, I think that CR over-emphasizes their reliability measure in their overall ratings, but that's something I can adjust for myself when I read CR, and factor it into my purchase decision. Note that I did buy a Model 3, despite CR's giving it a 2/5 reliability rating, and an overall score that was reduced because of that reliability rating.

When you generate a score that makes it seem that a car that is the most loved by customers is not acceptable, then you have to start questioning your scoring mechanism.

That's not how I read CR's rating of the Model 3. CR currently gives the Model 3 an overall score of 65 (the range among "luxury compact cars" being 39 to 80). This score is based on a road test score of 82 (the range being 56 to 88), reliability of 2/5, owner satisfaction of 5/5, and crash-test and safety features (which are mostly excellent). For a while, the Model 3 earned CR's "Recommended" label, but that was based on an early reliability score of 3/5 and was removed after more reliability data came in which dropped the reliability score to 2/5. CR has an official "Not Acceptable" designation that's reserved for really awful products -- mostly those with bad safety problems. The Model 3 doesn't come close to that level in CR's testing.

IMHO, you're mis-characterizing CR's rating of the Model 3. If you don't like the way they weight various factors, fine; you can ignore the overall score and instead focus on the individual factors, which CR presents. An overall score in the way CR does it will inevitably be based on weightings that are somewhat arbitrary, and it's fine if you'd prefer to weight things differently. Calling it "cluelessness, stupidity, and methodological intransigence" is in error, though.

Tesla has been roundly criticized for a number of business practices that can be considered lapses of ethics, ranging from poor customer service to poor treatment of employees. Whether you believe such accusations and whether they're important to you are for you to decide, but discussing them is perfectly reasonable.
Pretty much all lies. Reasonable to discuss only if there is evidence of wrongdoing or ethical lapses. Not "people are saying" BS.

ROTFL. Tesla routinely lays off employees on a moment's notice; there are many credible reports here of poor customer service; and so on. Lies? I'm sure some charges against Tesla are that, but I'm skeptical that "pretty much all" are.

As a CR subscriber, what I find most perplexing about their overall evaluation of the Model 3 is that the chart that represents the problem areas seems to have zero connection to the commentary about them.

13 out of 17 areas are shown as "much better than average", with 2 (paint/trim and in-car electronics) "better than average" and 1 (body hardware) "average".

How all of that adds up to an overall 2 out 5 rating for reliability is a complete mystery.

This is, essentially, an effect of statistical power and the fact that cars are so reliable on average. CR has 17 reliability areas, and they typically get reliability reports from a few hundred owners. Particularly in new model years, that gives them enough statistical power to know how particular models fare compared to each other overall, but with (on average) 1/17th the number of failures per trouble area, there aren't enough failures in most areas to make those individual areas look much worse than average. As cars age and begin to produce more problems, that changes, so you begin to see more in the way of obviously negative scores in individual trouble spots. This is somewhat analogous to resolution in a digital photo. At low resolution, you might be able to make out that a photo is of a person, but you wouldn't be able to identify that person, describe what they're wearing, etc. As resolution improves (or the number of problems increases), you can make more determinations about the person in the photo (or identify the specific areas where problems occur). The fact that any specific reliability area bumps off of a 5/5 score in a first-year model likely indicates problems overall.

This is a misunderstanding that comes up again and again in public discussions like this one. Although CR does explain it somewhere (I couldn't find a link, but I know I've read it on their site and/or in the pages of their magazine), they don't make the explanation prominent enough, IMHO.
 
That's not true. I don't have a reference, but I researched this a while back, and CR does weight different problem areas (in its reliability rankings) differently. In your example, a "small bug" (say, music playback skipping tracks) will count less than "an engine blowing out." In particular, CR weights anything that's safety-related or that can leave you stranded at the side of the road more heavily than other issues.
This is correct but it does not capture the problem:

In the first couple of years most cars tend to have very few major reliability problems so the evaluation pivots to minor issues. The poor Tesla grade mostly represents annoyances and a relatively high rate of new car/new model initial quality issues. This methodology worked well for CR during the ICE age because cars that were below average at at early age tended to turn into money pits 5 - 10 years later. As the cars collected more gadgetry the method has become less useful because the new car annoyances were not mechanical. Tesla is not necessarily being singled out by CR, but as the pinnacle of a computer on wheels they feel the brunt of a methodology that is a poor evaluator of modern cars in general, and Tesla in particular.
 
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In the first couple of years most cars tend to have very few major reliability problems so the evaluation pivots to minor issues. The poor Tesla grade mostly represents annoyances and a relatively high rate of new car/new model initial quality issues. This methodology worked well for CR during the ICE age because cars that were below average at at early age tended to turn into money pits 5 - 10 years later. As the cars collected more gadgetry the method has become less useful because the new car annoyances were not mechanical. Tesla is not necessarily being singled out by CR, but as the pinnacle of a computer on wheels they feel the brunt of a methodology that is a poor evaluator of modern cars in general, and Tesla in particular.

This is an interesting hypothesis. Do you have data to back up the assertion that early-year reliability is less correlated with long-term reliability now than it used to be? If you've got a link to a study on this issue, I'd be interested in reading it.
 
This is an interesting hypothesis. Do you have data to back up the assertion that early-year reliability is less correlated with long-term reliability now than it used to be? If you've got a link to a study on this issue, I'd be interested in reading it.
It's in plain site. Look at the ranking of initial quality by e.g. JD Powers over time and compare to the 10 year reliability rankings of CR. They are increasingly discordant. When the Detroit 3 were being eaten alive by the Japanese they embarked on a quality turn-around mostly focused on initial quality and they succeeded quite admirably. However, long-term reliability is a much harder and fundamentally different problem to solve and while Detroit has improved they remain far behind the best Japanese brands.
 
37k miles 2017 S90D.

1. Front seat replacement because of stitching issue upon delivery. Free at home.

2. 12v battery replaced 2nd year. Free at home.

3. Alignment - paid at 35k miles.

4. Tires replaced at 37k. (This time I’ll do better about not stomping the accelerator quite so much.)

Been awesome! Haven’t been to a service center yet. Will go once before my warranty is up to make sure all is good.

Yes, you will have some software glitches. But if you are okay with a smartphone and prefer that over a flip phone, then you will prefer a Tesla over anything else. And even when there are some software glitches of a possible reboot, the car itself has ran great.
 
Before a single Model 3 had shipped, CR published their prediction that the Model 3 was going to have worse than average reliability. How’s that for objectivity? Can you say “confirmation bias”?
They do that for all cars, and it works both ways. It is probably true that a manufacturer who has low quality cars will have the same with their next car, and vice versa.

As consumers we do the same all the time. Say you had a great experience with your Tesla. When it comes time to buy another car, will your positive experience influence your decision to buy another Tesla ?

I cancelled my CR subscription because I don't find it helpful, but the criticisms here are mostly off the mark. Their methods are transparent and made in good faith. In my opinion though they are outdated. Not bad -- just wrong.
 
37k miles 2017 S90D.

1. Front seat replacement because of stitching issue upon delivery. Free at home.

2. 12v battery replaced 2nd year. Free at home.

3. Alignment - paid at 35k miles.

4. Tires replaced at 37k. (This time I’ll do better about not stomping the accelerator quite so much.)

Been awesome! Haven’t been to a service center yet. Will go once before my warranty is up to make sure all is good.

Yes, you will have some software glitches. But if you are okay with a smartphone and prefer that over a flip phone, then you will prefer a Tesla over anything else. And even when there are some software glitches of a possible reboot, the car itself has ran great.

Brant, Bippie, others... thanks for sharing.

I am assuming a lot of M3 parts, such as seat motors and wiring, are pretty standard within the auto industry. The key for the longevity is card design obviously. But did Tesla use a solid and proven materials or substandard parts to cut cost?
 
Brant, Bippie, others... thanks for sharing.

I am assuming a lot of M3 parts, such as seat motors and wiring, are pretty standard within the auto industry. The key for the longevity is card design obviously. But did Tesla use a solid and proven materials or substandard parts to cut cost?

For the 12v battery issue, I believe I was part of a bad batch from a supplier. The 12v battery in a S/X does cycle many more times than in a gas car. I think they were going to get rid of the 12v battery altogether for the Model Y.

Tesla did get rid of the dedicated rain sensor for wipers which may have been a bad idea.

People may think the interior isn’t “plush” as an Audi and I agree. So those materials could be better. But I’d still take the MS interior over the Audi.
 
It's in plain site. Look at the ranking of initial quality by e.g. JD Powers over time and compare to the 10 year reliability rankings of CR. They are increasingly discordant.

It sounds like you haven't done a true quantitative analysis of this issue, then. What's more, comparing the rankings by two different organizations introduces an unnecessary variable. This isn't to say your hypothesis is wrong, but you haven't provided any real evidence to support it, either.
 
Fascinating!

If the object of this thread was changed to any social or political issue of today, the conversation would go exactly the same way. The obstinate support of one point of view, in the face of information that the other side considers overwhelming, is indeed quite astonishing.

Good thing it’s just a car, despite the not-exactly-fringe opinion that it’s a cause or a mission and such.


By the way, electric motoring without this level of drama, albeit with its own (comparably modest) share of early adoption issues, does indeed exist nowadays, and the volume of options in that space is only growing. I suspect that many on one particular side of this argument will discover those options pretty soon and will just move on with life.

As it is with so many other things in life, the rest will forever overanalyze the failure and will happily explain that everything was actually great, it was just some unfortunate/unfair circumstances that brought about the demise.
 
Here is the Consumer Reports math.

Almost all of Consumer Reports subscribers drive Internal Combustion Engine cars.
If CR declares ICE age cars dinosaurs CR alienates their base and go bankrupt.

To protect their ICE age subscribers, CR does not factor in software updates.
Since I got my Model 3, I have had 15 major updates. One morning,
the top end went up 7 mph. Others mornings it was Sentry Mode, Dog Mode,
Track Mode, Navigate on Auto, Summon, and better self driving every time.

Also, to protect their ICE age subscribers, CR does not factor in the total cost of
ownership including oil changes, O2 sensors, serpentine belts, transmissions,
engines, radiators, water pumps, oil pumps, and a thousand other parts.

Consumer Reports is desperate to protect the secret that the dealer makes more
on service than sales. So CR only talks about specs and initial delivery.

If Tesla's were bad cars, they would not have the highest resale values.
 
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Consumer reports reliability rating is horrible. They gave the model 3 an unreliable score for having panel gaps or paint chips. Their excuse, that is needs to be taken to the shop to fix. Essentially, what their reliability score should be is a fit and finish score. Reliability to me means I can drive my car when I want and don't run into any issues.
 
I had a Leaf that was terminally slow but it would spin its front wheels frequently due to a lack of traction and poor traction control, so I know what CR is referring to and I concur.

The pretty lethargic acceleration was described as "appropriate for a luxury vehicle". And "On the plus side, there is no spinning of wheels that we have experienced in some other EVs". Hello you know that's because it's slow? So everyone was wrong slow is good in cars now.
 
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